Jaguar I-Pace driver who was rammed by police as brakes failed on M62

[Surfer]

14 hours ago, UKTJ said:

First, that news is a year old now.  Second, rather disingenuous to imply it is because of problems with it as an EV.  Jaguar is stopping production of ALL current models and will relaunch as an EV only brand in 2025.  It is part of a JLR strategy that will likely see Jaguar move further up market as it dumps all the ‘cheapo’ brand diluting models.

 

Helpful article here.

I think that will be a bad move and see the demise of Jaguar as they sellers of EVs are struggling to shift them due to high ridiculous prices for car, insurance and also the majority of people in Britain cannot plug in an EV at home.

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

I think that will be a bad move and see the demise of Jaguar as they sellers of EVs are struggling to shift them due to high ridiculous prices for car, insurance and also the majority of people in Britain cannot plug in an EV at home.

It is certainly a bold strategic move.  Given the development lead times in the automotive industry, market conditions may well not be where JLR anticipated they would be at the time the decision was made.  However, I don't think the success or failure of the strategy will rely on the UK market.

Edited March 16 by UKTJ

[digger]

Plus the public in the uk are not completely stupid. There are still I believe far more used cars than new sold. The electrics with big batteries depreciate really badly already because of the cost of battery replacement usually many thousands of pounds!

[Surfer]

39 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

It is certainly a bold strategic move.  Given the development lead times in the automotive industry, market conditions may well not be where JLR anticipated they would be at the time the decision was made.  However, I don't think the success or failure of the strategy will rely on the UK market.

However sales are also flagging in the EU so not just the UK.  At present we would not consider an EV or even a hybrid.  My SIL has a Honda Hybrid and on battery only if he is very lucky, they get 35 miles on a charge.  However due to the weight of the battery, the car's fuel consumption is probably higher than what it would be if it was a straight ICE vehicle.  Jeep are going the same way to pure EV so many of us probably would not consider a new Jeep.  Our 2018 GC is definitely our last Jeep.

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, digger said:

Plus the public in the uk are not completely stupid.

Hmmm, I'll come back to you on that one

 

1 hour ago, digger said:

There are still I believe far more used cars than new sold. The electrics with big batteries depreciate really badly already because of the cost of battery replacement usually many thousands of pounds!

I agree that it is really unclear what the second hand market for BEVs will be.  We looked at an a couple of BEVs just before Covid, mainly because of the very attractive company car tax regime.  I've never financed the purchase of any car I've bought. I'm very old fashioned, if I don't have the funds to pay for it I don't buy something.  But, if we had bought a BEV then I think we would almost certainly done that on some sort of contract hire, I concluded it was worth the cost to transfer the residual risk to the manufacturer.

[V]

14 hours ago, UKTJ said:

Just JLR, maybe, but the Police and DVSA.  What is more likely, an individual trying to avoid a conviction or a conspiracy across multiple UK agencies to protect an Indian owned car maker?

I suspect that the Police and DVSA do not have the expertise to debug a complex electronic system with proprietary software to make a judgement call on their own without being heavily reliant on the opinion of JLR. Just as the Police did in the Post Office's prosecution of sub-post masters where they took advice from Fujitsu, the software developer which lead to innocent victims going to jail for crimes that they did not commit, and at worst ending their own lives because nobody believed them.

 

This case is an eye-opener for anyone with a tech reliant vehicle. If the tech fails and causes a crime, you the driver are responsible. You are guilty until proven innocent because the authorities don't have the expertise, the time, the resources, or the inclination to investigate further when they can get a quick win by simply prosecuting you on the basis that there is a lack of evidence to prove your innocence.

 

Boeing managed to hoodwink aviation authorities around the world about the safety of the &37-Max. Their software bolt-on to correct an aerodynamic design defect killed 346 people before anyone started to question the FAA's ability to verify that the software was actually safe to fly with.

 

If the Police and the DVSA are not able to debug every line of code in the software independently of JLR, and how that code interacts with components that have their own embedded firmware, then they have not done a thorough investigation.

 

[UKTJ]

55 minutes ago, V said:

I suspect that the Police and DVSA do not have the expertise to debug a complex electronic system with proprietary software to make a judgement call on their own without being heavily reliant on the opinion of JLR. Just as the Police did in the Post Office's prosecution of sub-post masters where they took advice from Fujitsu, the software developer which lead to innocent victims going to jail for crimes that they did not commit, and at worst ending their own lives because nobody believed them.

 

This case is an eye-opener for anyone with a tech reliant vehicle. If the tech fails and causes a crime, you the driver are responsible. You are guilty until proven innocent because the authorities don't have the expertise, the time, the resources, or the inclination to investigate further when they can get a quick win by simply prosecuting you on the basis that there is a lack of evidence to prove your innocence.

 

Boeing managed to hoodwink aviation authorities around the world about the safety of the &37-Max. Their software bolt-on to correct an aerodynamic design defect killed 346 people before anyone started to question the FAA's ability to verify that the software was actually safe to fly with.

 

If the Police and the DVSA are not able to debug every line of code in the software independently of JLR, and how that code interacts with components that have their own embedded firmware, then they have not done a thorough investigation.

 

I thought it was the case that the Post Office brought private prosecutions against sub-postmasters.  No surprise Fujitsu and the Post Office acted together, they both had a vested interest in ensurjng any issues with Horizon did not surface.

 

Now, there could be all sorts of reasons the i-Pace was driving excessively fast.  It could have been a software fault that can't be found / is being concealed knowingly or otherwise by the authorities.  It could have been somebody trying to get off of being arrested for speeding / dangerous driving.  It could have been due to an alien space craft attaching a tractor beam to the car and dragging it along the motorway.  It could have been due to a Russian hacking into his car, causing the issue and then totally hiding the event.  Some of those are more likely than others, but nobody can disprove any of them, so I guess we all just have to take a view on which each of us thinks is more likely.

 

From what I have read the DVSA are continuing to investigate, maybe in time they will find something more conclusive to help bottom out the incident.  One thing that would help inform a decision by any of us would be to know a bit more about the guy, but I guess that could be seen as problematic to share for some legal reason.

[Surfer]

1 hour ago, V said:

I suspect that the Police and DVSA do not have the expertise to debug a complex electronic system with proprietary software to make a judgement call on their own without being heavily reliant on the opinion of JLR. Just as the Police did in the Post Office's prosecution of sub-post masters where they took advice from Fujitsu, the software developer which lead to innocent victims going to jail for crimes that they did not commit, and at worst ending their own lives because nobody believed them.

 

This case is an eye-opener for anyone with a tech reliant vehicle. If the tech fails and causes a crime, you the driver are responsible. You are guilty until proven innocent because the authorities don't have the expertise, the time, the resources, or the inclination to investigate further when they can get a quick win by simply prosecuting you on the basis that there is a lack of evidence to prove your innocence.

 

Boeing managed to hoodwink aviation authorities around the world about the safety of the &37-Max. Their software bolt-on to correct an aerodynamic design defect killed 346 people before anyone started to question the FAA's ability to verify that the software was actually safe to fly with.

 

If the Police and the DVSA are not able to debug every line of code in the software independently of JLR, and how that code interacts with components that have their own embedded firmware, then they have not done a thorough investigation.

 

For commercial reasons the JLG cannot divulge the coding for the I-Pace.  That is the normal excuse!

[AlexK]

I think there's more to this story than is being reported.

 

There was a similar story a while ago involving a guy in an MG EV. He went to the press with a sensationalist headline of "I was kidnapped by my electric car" and was reported to have had to crash into the back of a police van in order to stop.

 

If I remember correctly, a few other interesting snippets came to light after the story had broken. Firstly, he'd tried to get out of the lease on his car, and had unsuccessfully returned it to the dealer to try to get out of it. Secondly, it was discovered he ran a social media PR business and it was suggested the incident was an elaborate way to prove his services. I may be a little fuzzy in my recollection of the details, but I distinctly remember calling bullsh*t on the whole thing.

 

This one sounds a bit like that.

[Tony]

Imagine letting this guy get away with it,would allow everyone to speed and say it was the car your honour!

I know a lot of people on here are against e.v cars but there coming like it or not.

[Surfer]

I can understand any isolated incident, but apparently the same has happened on more than one occasion?

[Raakhee]

This story does not add up. Driver called for assistance and now he is being arrested for dangerous driving. Surely if you speeding you would not call for assistance. 

He says it happed in December as well but didn't report it. 

Either way, too many electronics in a car takes away control from the driver, in my opinion. 

I am assuming he didn't have a hand brake but button 

 

[UKTJ]

3 hours ago, Raakhee said:

This story does not add up. Driver called for assistance and now he is being arrested for dangerous driving. Surely if you speeding you would not call for assistance. 

He says it happed in December as well but didn't report it. 

Either way, too many electronics in a car takes away control from the driver, in my opinion. 

I am assuming he didn't have a hand brake but button 

 

I guess until any reporting of more information everyone will have to pick the explanation they find most plausible.  Me, I'm definitely in the aliens and tractor beam camp, and none of you can prove otherwise

[digger]

'Another Jem!' 

''Tech Trouble In The Sunshine State

During the Chinese New Year celebrations heralding the Year of the Dragon in San Francisco, a self-driving Jaguar I-PACE taxi operated by Waymo (the self-driving car incubator owned by Alphabet/Google) narrowly avoided mowing down some revellers and then came to a halt. Within minutes, the crowd shoved firecrackers through the windows and set the hapless machine alight. Some heavies started to smash the windscreen as a cheering crowd looked on and applauded. The episode was recorded on YouTube. The $150,000 vehicle was left a charred wreck.

Nobody is suggesting that resentment against self-driving taxis is restricted to the Golden Gate City’s vibrant Chinese community. While this was the first time that the city’s 600-or so robotaxis had been destroyed since a pilot scheme was first rolled out in 2022, there have been numerous incidents which suggest that many townspeople are not fans. A group of vigilantes which calls itself Safe Street Rebel has taken to immobilising them by placing traffic cones on their bonnets. Apparently, this deactivates the cars’ sensors, and the useless vehicles must then be recovered by their operators. Many self-driving vehicles have been vandalised.''

I would just add that I am not a Luddite. I just fail to see why are lives are allowed to be put at risk with technology that hasn't been developed properly and using us as guinea  pigs! What is more , few people that I know want this so why are we wasting so much money on it!

Just mho! Perhaps its a similar mentality to the small number of extremists who want to close the last of the lanes to us!

Edited March 18 by digger

[Raakhee]

12 minutes ago, digger said:

I would just add that I am not a Luddite. I just fail to see why are lives are allowed to be put at risk with technology that hasn't been developed properly and using us as guinea  pigs! What is more , few people that I know want this so why are we wasting so much money on it!

Just mho! Perhaps its a similar mentality to the small number of extremists who want to close the last of the lanes to us!

 

But its the "right type" of few people that want it... Generally those who have the power to make changes for the majority. Like that selective survey of the expansion of ULEZ in London.

I'm not against progression but it seems that testing and rollout is not done with any thought of the consequences.

 

[UKTJ]

3 hours ago, digger said:

'Another Jem!' 

''Tech Trouble In The Sunshine State

During the Chinese New Year celebrations heralding the Year of the Dragon in San Francisco, a self-driving Jaguar I-PACE taxi operated by Waymo (the self-driving car incubator owned by Alphabet/Google) narrowly avoided mowing down some revellers and then came to a halt. Within minutes, the crowd shoved firecrackers through the windows and set the hapless machine alight. Some heavies started to smash the windscreen as a cheering crowd looked on and applauded. The episode was recorded on YouTube. The $150,000 vehicle was left a charred wreck.

Nobody is suggesting that resentment against self-driving taxis is restricted to the Golden Gate City’s vibrant Chinese community. While this was the first time that the city’s 600-or so robotaxis had been destroyed since a pilot scheme was first rolled out in 2022, there have been numerous incidents which suggest that many townspeople are not fans. A group of vigilantes which calls itself Safe Street Rebel has taken to immobilising them by placing traffic cones on their bonnets. Apparently, this deactivates the cars’ sensors, and the useless vehicles must then be recovered by their operators. Many self-driving vehicles have been vandalised.''

I would just add that I am not a Luddite. I just fail to see why are lives are allowed to be put at risk with technology that hasn't been developed properly and using us as guinea  pigs! What is more , few people that I know want this so why are we wasting so much money on it!

Just mho! Perhaps its a similar mentality to the small number of extremists who want to close the last of the lanes to us!

No mention of the car nearly mowing people down in this news report, just a group of vandals egging each other on trying to get a cheer from the crowd according to an eye witness.

Waymo News Report

But who knows what the truth of it is as any party reporting it probably has their own angle.

[BLUE STAR]

On 16/03/2024 at 17:37, Tony said:

Imagine letting this guy get away with it,would allow everyone to speed and say it was the car your honour!

I know a lot of people on here are against e.v cars but there coming like it or not.

So who ever voted  for a totalitarian Govt to impose such insane policies as we have now on the British public ?

Problem is the public themselves, as they appear to listen to the propaganda and follow like sheep, hence the number of EV's etc on the road currently.

Non of this is for our benefit that's for sure.

I suspect it wont end well as buyers both commercial & private will eventually loose their shirts on this, or a bailout for the dealerships will be required, or will they let them go under so that they can sell direct ?

Whatever the Govt pushes, 'belligerently' do the opposite, have some 'critical thinking', something which was sadly missing during the vaccine propaganda.  Sure glad I didn't comply to that one.

[digger]

Hi UKTJ ,  Raakee,  I'm afraid the h/brake button in the car we had was useless for anything bar parking because it did not function above walking pace! Hence no emergency brake, no possibility of a h/brake turn in an emergency, no feel to the h/brake and always jerky on/off discomfort! Horrible!

On 17/03/2024 at 17:25, Raakhee said:

This story does not add up. Driver called for assistance and now he is being arrested for dangerous driving. Surely if you speeding you would not call for assistance. 

He says it happed in December as well but didn't report it. 

Either way, too many electronics in a car takes away control from the driver, in my opinion. 

I am assuming he didn't have a hand brake but button 

 

 

[JimC]

1 hour ago, BLUE STAR said:

So who ever voted  for a totalitarian Govt to impose such insane policies as we have now on the British public ?

Problem is the public themselves, as they appear to listen to the propaganda and follow like sheep, hence the number of EV's etc on the road currently.

Non of this is for our benefit that's for sure.

I suspect it wont end well as buyers both commercial & private will eventually loose their shirts on this, or a bailout for the dealerships will be required, or will they let them go under so that they can sell direct ?

Whatever the Govt pushes, 'belligerently' do the opposite, have some 'critical thinking', something which was sadly missing during the vaccine propaganda.  Sure glad I didn't comply to that one.

Could we please keep JOC politics free. Life is too short to and this is a Jeep website which has nowt to do with politics.
 

 

[Fireman Iain]

I'm seeing a lot of EV negativity on this thread. As 4x4 enthusiasts, we're a pretty niche section of the population. And from the posts I read on here, lots of folk run their Jeeps as hobby vehicles and have something more efficient as their daily drivers.

What do most drivers want? I'd hazard a guess at not wanting projects, not wanting to tinker and modify, and not wanting fuel guzzling vehicles.

An educated guess says a lot of the population aspire to modern, high tech cars, with every gadget going. If they have a few spare quid they probably finance their cars on lease or PCP.  Reliability, warranty and the lowest possible running costs probably feature highly on the wish lists.

Helen, my girlfriend has recently switched from a petrol Citroen C4 that let her down badly to a Vauxhall Mokka e.

An EV.

It's less than a year old, less than 5000 miles and costs her less per month than a petrol version. All the gadgets, a really nice interior for the money, and refined enough to be able to whisper to each other at motorway speeds. It's ace.

She can put 200 miles of range on it for less than 3 quid on her home charger. My WK2 is my daily and costs me about £45 to drive that far. Who's smarter?

I'm a big lump and like a big vehicle to be comfortable. If I could swap to an EV that had the same comfort and size as my WK2, I'd give up its offroad ability and change to an EV in a heartbeat. Helen's Mokka is too small for me, and bigger EV's are out of my budget. 

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, Fireman Iain said:

I'm seeing a lot of EV negativity on this thread. As 4x4 enthusiasts, we're a pretty niche section of the population. And from the posts I read on here, lots of folk run their Jeeps as hobby vehicles and have something more efficient as their daily drivers.

What do most drivers want? I'd hazard a guess at not wanting projects, not wanting to tinker and modify, and not wanting fuel guzzling vehicles.

An educated guess says a lot of the population aspire to modern, high tech cars, with every gadget going. If they have a few spare quid they probably finance their cars on lease or PCP.  Reliability, warranty and the lowest possible running costs probably feature highly on the wish lists.

Helen, my girlfriend has recently switched from a petrol Citroen C4 that let her down badly to a Vauxhall Mokka e.

An EV.

It's less than a year old, less than 5000 miles and costs her less per month than a petrol version. All the gadgets, a really nice interior for the money, and refined enough to be able to whisper to each other at motorway speeds. It's ace.

She can put 200 miles of range on it for less than 3 quid on her home charger. My WK2 is my daily and costs me about £45 to drive that far. Who's smarter?

I'm a big lump and like a big vehicle to be comfortable. If I could swap to an EV that had the same comfort and size as my WK2, I'd give up its offroad ability and change to an EV in a heartbeat. Helen's Mokka is too small for me, and bigger EV's are out of my budget. 

Interesting to hear of somebody buying a year old EV, I've not heard of somebody being able to do that before.  Was it through a main dealer?  When you say it costs less than the petrol version a month is that some form of contract purchase price or just the running costs?  I've never been a buyer of new cars since I stopped working for a car maker and got a crazy discount on them, but I have not seen much of a nearly new market in EVs (I just can't accept the depreciation in year 1 on most vehicles).  Interesting if one is starting to develop.

[Fireman Iain]

5 hours ago, UKTJ said:

Interesting to hear of somebody buying a year old EV, I've not heard of somebody being able to do that before.  Was it through a main dealer?  When you say it costs less than the petrol version a month is that some form of contract purchase price or just the running costs?  I've never been a buyer of new cars since I stopped working for a car maker and got a crazy discount on them, but I have not seen much of a nearly new market in EVs (I just can't accept the depreciation in year 1 on most vehicles).  Interesting if one is starting to develop.

 

Yes, the monthly contract cost was slightly lower. The cash purchase price was more or less the same as for a petrol.

 

She bought from a multi brand EV specialist. There's definitely a market for lightly used EV's just as there is and always has been for ICE vehicles.

[Surfer]

Makes you wonder why someone sold it as soon if EV are supposed to so great? However total myth that they are environmentally friendly!

[UKTJ]

2 hours ago, Fireman Iain said:

 

Yes, the monthly contract cost was slightly lower. The cash purchase price was more or less the same as for a petrol.

 

She bought from a multi brand EV specialist. There's definitely a market for lightly used EV's just as there is and always has been for ICE vehicles.

I don't doubt the demand side would exist, especially with the pricing Helen achieved.  It's the supply side that I was less sure about.  My understanding was that a much higher proportion of new EVs are "sold' on a lease contract basis, with an extremely high proportion of those being 'bought' by companies in recent years due to the very attractive BIK applied to electric vehicles.  Those market conditions resulted in very few nearly new electric vehicles being available second hand.  Think I'll take a look again, maybe things have moved on.  If it is possible to get an electric vehicle where somebody else has taken the year 1 depreciation and it can be bought on a lease contract, meaning we are not committed to being left holding it at the end of the period it may be a good option for my wife's next car.

[V]

I have been interested in electric vehicles for more than 20 years. I am not against them as a thing, I'm just against governments forcing them upon us as the only new vehicle choice. I learned to drive in an electric milk float when I was 13.

 

I think many car buyers don't properly compare the running costs of a BEV with that of an internal combustion vehicle. The 'lower' running costs today are due to deferring a significant amount of the real cost of use until later in the vehicle's lifetime. After about 800 battery charge cycles the EV's battery will be beyond it's best and will have started it's descent into an ever decreasing drivable range. At some point the owner will be faced with either (a) replacing the battery, (b) selling/trading the vehicle or (c) scrapping it. It is at this point when the deferred cost arrives either as a large bill for a replacement battery or huge loss in vehicle value. Within a few years, lease companies are going to readjust when they end up with large numbers of BEVs not selling at auction for the values that they have written down.

 

Those cheap running cost achieved now only become real if you deposit the price/mile difference into savings or investments every time you recharge your battery. After spending the fund on a, b or c, you will know what the true cost per mile was. If you still have to find money to replace the vehicle or battery at that point, your running costs were higher all along.

 

I suspect that a 3 year old BEV will be effectively valueless at the end of a 3 to 4 year lease (at 7 years old) depending on mileage. I think a lot of people that have leased internal combustion engined cars will find that the BEV will not be an asset to trade in for the next lease and that they will have to stump up cash for the deposit on the next one.