Hello from a potential new Jeep owner

[Keith_L]

Good morning.  I have joined the Forum looking for some advice before possibly becoming a Jeep owner and the joining the Club as a full member.

 

My wife and I both enjoy our cars and driving - we have four between the two of us, ranging from a Morris Minor Traveller to a Jaguar F-Pace.  However, we are not mechanical in any way beyond 'light tinkering' - I have changed the fuel pump on the Morris, so we are reliant on other for technical advice.  Over the years we have enjoyed various off-road sessions either at Land Rover events at Eastnor, Solihull or Gaydon or in Yorkshire or Wales.  We even went green-laning in Wales in the F-Pace which proved surprisingly capable.  Now we are retired we fancied getting at least giving it a try to see how we got on.  Maybe more green-laning than hard-core off-roading.  We also fancied something other than the ubiquitous Defender - something a bit smaller and a bit more fun such as a Suzuki Jimny, Fiat Panda 4x4 or a Jeep Wrangler.  Covid has rather curtailed our investigations but yesterday we spotted a 2002 Wrangler Safari for sale in someone's drive locally.  It has done 115K miles and appears to be standard other than a winch on the front and some nice chunky tyres.  The owner has had it for 7 years and has never taken it further off-road than a track to a friend's farm.  We had a look round as best we could and superficially it looks okay other than a rusty nearside front wing.  We also had a long chat with the owner on the phone.  A few questions have come out of this which we hoped the Forum could help us with.

 

Does anyone know of any Jeep specialists in the Bromsgrove/Worcestershire who could perhaps check over the car for us, or better still are their any knowledgeable members who would be prepared to help us?  I could ask our local garage to give it a general look over but there may well be Wrangler peculiarities to look out for that they may not be aware of.

 

Are there any particular things we should be asking about or looking for in the paperwork?  What are the weak points on this vehicle?

 

The car has an LPG conversion with the tank underneath.  Is this a common conversion and should we be worried about the location of the tank?

 

One issue the owner highlighted was that if the car was left out and it went cold you got condensation and water dripping off the inside of the hard top.  Is this a common problem and more importantly is there a solution for this as we would have to leave the car outside?

 

In other discussions with a friend the question of ground clearance came up and they were suggesting that you really needed to raise the suspension if you wanted to take the Wrangler off-roading.  Is this the case and how much would such a modification cost?  Out of interest what is the ground clearance and wading depth on a standard Wrangler?

 

Finally (for the time being at least), are there any issues to be aware of driving a Wrangler?  I know there are potential problems with the Jimny for example whereby you can snap the rear drive shafts if you take a U-bend in one go without reversing up to relieve the twist in the drive shaft.

 

Any useful guidance would be gratefully received.  Thank you in advance.

 

We did find the same car for sale on the Car & Classic website:  https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1313234

Edited April 2, 2021 by Keith_L
URL added

[Keith_L]

Thank you Jim - I appreciate your time taken to respond so comprehensively.

 

Have a great weekend.

[Volant165]

Hi Keith,

 

Jim above has hit the areas and answered similar to how I would. I own a 2003 TJ (your Wrangler body style) the rust on the wing is common. You need to have the LPG looked at as for the quality of the system and location of the tank for green lanes as you will encounter rocks in places. 
 

as above you can go for an affordable 2 inch lift. 
 

Jeep is a great colour. Take it for a drive.

 

condensation inside seems to me like water getting into the jeep somewhere. Feel the carpet and see if you can look under in places for rust. 
 

The hardtops are about £550 to buy used as most TJ's have a soft top. 
 

The 4litre is a great engine. 

Take the top off, and cruise. You will smile endlessly and enjoy the ride. 
 

Good luck and look forward to welcoming you as an owner!
 

 

[Keith_L]

I think we have written off the one we went to look at.  It felt very nervous on the road.  Either the tyres were too big (30" BFG) or it wasn't set up right.  The LPG conversion worried me as well. It had a non-standard petrol tank which seems to have caused problems in the past and the LPG tank seemed very vulnerable being as low as, and behind, the rear diff.

 

So, back to basics.  Sticking with a TJ, 4.0 or 2.5 engine?  Is the 2.5 up to the job?  Manual or automatic?  Most seem to be automatic but is manual better for off-road use?

[Keith_L]

I also took some photos of the underneath of the car we saw which shows there is at least some surface rust.  I didn't go round poking a screwdriver into anything to see if it is worse than that but for my future reference would these photos immediately ring alarm bells with you?

[TimC]

2 hours ago, Keith_L said:

I think we have written off the one we went to look at.  It felt very nervous on the road.  Either the tyres were too big (30" BFG) or it wasn't set up right.  The LPG conversion worried me as well. It had a non-standard petrol tank which seems to have caused problems in the past and the LPG tank seemed very vulnerable being as low as, and behind, the rear diff.

 

So, back to basics.  Sticking with a TJ, 4.0 or 2.5 engine?  Is the 2.5 up to the job?  Manual or automatic?  Most seem to be automatic but is manual better for off-road use?

Keith, 4.0L if you have a choice. It’s a reliable engine and you can really use the extra power/torque if you are thinking of lifting for bigger tyres. There’s nothing wrong with the 2.5 but there is hardly any difference in the mpg so you may as well get the 4.0. My YJ is 2.5 and on 29” tyres with no re gear you do notice it lacking a bit occasionally 

[V]

Looking at the photos posted, that TJ chassis is in good shape for it's age. It's a reasonable benchmark for a good example.

 

A body lifted Jeep may have problems with handling (CofG has shifted higher in relation to the roll centre). Body lifts can also have gear stick, transfer case shifter and radiator problems. I avoid them, but acknowledge that they can be a useful tuning adjustment on a Jeep that already has substantial suspension modifications. Body lifts are usually fitted by people that want the look and are not concerned about the performance aspect of fitting them.

 

I have been using LPG on one of my Cherokees for twenty years. In that time I have yet to see a proper LPG system fitted for any offroad vehicle that was engineered right first time by a 'qualified' fitter. There is a chance that there may be a qualified LPG fitter in the UK that is also an offroader, but the vast majority haven't got a clue how to install a system that will survive physical impacts with the terrain, mud blocking holes, water getting into places that would never happen on a street car. My LPG system was worked on unsuccessfully by three different firms before I reworked it myself to be reliable enough for offroading. I like LPG a lot but the automotive LPG industry in the UK is all about fitting a system in the shortest amount of time to maximise profit and the insurance industry is too scared to believe that the adequately skilled enthusiasts could do a far superior job. If you are not mechanically minded, don't buy an LPG Jeep for offroading.

 

30" tyres are fine on an unlifted TJ and the Jeep doesn't need a suspension lift to have a lot of fun offroad. Other than mud terrain tyres, an unlifted TJ benefits greatly by replacing the factory front ant-rollbar (swaybar) links with JKS Quicker Disconnects. This will give the front axle greater articulation offroad when the swaybar is disconnected. With swaybar disconnects the front brake hoses should be replaced with longer hoses to accommodate the articulation. On a stock Jeep you can get away with lowering the hard lines at the last clip by gently bending the pipework and refixing the clip lower down. 35" tyres are as big as you want to go on a TJ. The short wheelbase of a TJ makes 37" tyres too big for safety.

 

Handling problems on Wranglers often require experience to diagnose. If you are too familiar with rack and pinion steering you may not be able to tell what a good Wrangler steering system feels like. The recirculating ball steering box combined with a solid axle will always give a Wrangler a truck like feel but it is possible to achieve sports car like handling with the right choice of components properly set up.

 

I have owned both manual and automatic Jeeps as offroaders. My personal preference is for automatics as I like the finer degree of control that an auto transmission gives me. Drive both off road and make your own mind up. If you are a manual driver you will have to learn how to drive an auto properly offroad. It's an auto thing that manual drivers just don't get and vice-versa.

[Keith_L]

4 hours ago, V said:

My personal preference is for automatics as I like the finer degree of control that an auto transmission gives me

 

I found your comment interesting.  Would you be so good as explain further what you mean by this?  I had kind of assumed the manual would give greater control but you are suggesting otherwise.  Including automatics in our search would certainly increase the number of prospects.

[Keith_L]

On 02/04/2021 at 21:27, Volant165 said:

 

 

I noted in another post that you stopped by a garage near Solihull that imports TJs from Japan.  Can you remember the details as it is only down the road from us and might be worth a look.

[AlexK]

Tim, as ever, is correct - get the 4.0L.

 

That chassis looks pretty good to me.

 

I'll let V explain about autos off-road (hint: 'infinite' first gear helps) but I will say that the TJ's auto box is only a three-speeder in all but the last model years, and does dampen the fun somewhat.

 

This post of mine in response to similar questions may give some additional info if looking for a TJ.

[Keith_L]

Thanks Alex.  I missed that post.  I must go through the introductions section again to see if I've missed anything else.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Keith_L
Typo

[Keith_L]

The search continues.  Found this one at Nene Overland in Peterborough which looks nice, albeit more than we originally planned to spend:

 

https://www.neneoverland.co.uk/listings/jeep-wrangler-tj-3-door-4-0-petrol-soft-top/

 

4.0L, 6 speed manual, 67,407 miles, cruise control, air conditioning and a new Bestop soft top hood. The underneath looks like it is well caked in mud which could be hiding problems.

 

The MoT check says it is a Jamboree but nothing on the vehicle suggests it is a special edition.  Was the Jamboree the run-out model for the TJ?

 

What do people think?  Anyone near Peterborough fancy a trip out to take a look with us?

 

[Tony]

Looks tidy from a well established company Nene overland been around for a few years now.

[AlexK]

1 hour ago, Keith_L said:

The MoT check says it is a Jamboree but nothing on the vehicle suggests it is a special edition.  Was the Jamboree the run-out model for the TJ?

 

There were countless special edition TJs, especially in the later years, and many amounted to little more than some different floor mats and perhaps some alternate alloys. 

 

The Jamboree, if memory serves, was intended to replace the Sport but included gloss flares, those wheels, mats, factory a/c, cruise, better stereo.  I don't remember them having those seats but perhaps they did.  Some - but not all - had a Jamboree decal below the door that I always felt looked somewhat tacky.  I remember them all being silver, but perhaps other colours were available.

 

I don't see anything in those photos that would overly concern me.

 

As Tony says, Nene have been around a long time and generally know what they're doing.  I would say that £13k is quite strong, though.

[Volant165]

Concours Motor Company on Warwick road in Knowle.

 

 Not sure what-- if any -- Jeep stock he has but he moved a lot of Japan import TJ's and was very happy with them. It seems ages ago when I stopped in and took these photos and spoke to the owner.  If nothing else he has a full service facility on site and will have serviced many TJ's so will be a great resource.

 

ps: I was not aware that Nene was trading? Last update I had, I had received a notice that they went into administration and have never received an update after that so cannot say?? 

[Keith_L]

11 minutes ago, Volant165 said:

Concours Motor Company on Warwick road in Knowle.

Thank you for that but it is a bit odd.  I have just checked the website and it has a lot of nice cars but not a single Jeep.  I'll give them a call in the morning.

[neal]

1 hour ago, Volant165 said:

ps: I was not aware that Nene was trading? Last update I had, I had received a notice that they went into administration and have never received an update after that so cannot say?? 

Think they went into administration in 2018, but it looks like they also set up Nene Overland SV ltd at the same time.

They were always into Green Oval, rather than Jeep and if I remember a couple of the AEV JK set ups they sold needed a bit of TLC.

 

Anyway the price on that TJ is a bit steep 

[Maverick23]

17 minutes ago, neal said:

Think they went into administration in 2018, but it looks like they also set up Nene Overland SV ltd at the same time.

They were always into Green Oval, rather than Jeep and if I remember a couple of the AEV JK set ups they sold needed a bit of TLC.

 

Anyway the price on that TJ is a bit steep 

Agree with Neal ... Nene have always been LR specialists.

They did try to break into the Jeep market about 5-6 years ago. As far as I can tell, they got their fingers burnt AND had a few difficulties ... I think they left the Jeep market in 2018 and had a small name change at that time.

Maybe someone part-exchanged that TJ and they are trying to move it on ... seems odd that the surface view is spotless but the underneath is not cleaned at all ... unless that is mud coloured waxoyl 

PS Nene tend to be at the expensive end of the market ....

[matt the sign]

Thank you for linking my advert Jim !

 

Nene have a shocking reputation in the LR world, personally wouldn't touch them with the proverbial (do some searching online ...)

 

 

[Keith_L]

Thanks everyone for their input.

 

I spoke to Andy at Concours Motor Company in Knowle earlier.  Very helpful.  He doesn't have any Wranglers at the moment but he usually has a steady stream coming in from Japan and sells them pretty much straight way.

 

We'll keep looking. 

[Matt]

Another thumbs down on Nene from me, I had some initial modding done on my jeep straight from the forecourt (before I joined this forum) and there were a number of issues.

[TimC]

2 hours ago, Keith_L said:

Thanks everyone for their input.

 

I spoke to Andy at Concours Motor Company in Knowle earlier.  Very helpful.  He doesn't have any Wranglers at the moment but he usually has a steady stream coming in from Japan and sells them pretty much straight way.

 

We'll keep looking. 

 

Have you tried Claridgescars.co.uk they are also jeepwranglers.co.uk based in Leighton Buzzard. The website(s) look new and seem to be too clever for their own good, I preferred their old site, much more straightforward. Might be best to give them a call as they don't actually seem to have much on the website. I haven't bought anything from these guys but have been down there for a chat ( anyone local who describes themselves as a Jeep specialist is worth a visit! ) anyhow, they were nice guys and seemed to know their stuff, especially TJs and they had lots in at the time, was a couple of years ago mind.

 

Only thing is they do seem to 'pimp' their Jeeps up a bit and that bumps the prices up, can't believe some of the prices a TJ can go for! 

[Keith_L]

@timc - Just took a look at that site - thank you.  One car on there at the moment but a bit too much for us and LHD - looks very nice though.

[Keith_L]

Just wanted to let everyone know that we have moved to the dark side (well the green side really) and put a deposit down on a Land Rover Discovery 2.

 

I wanted to thank everyone here for their help, advice and encouragement during our search for a Wrangler.

 

Hopefully we can all get out there this summer and enjoy our vehicles to the full.

 

Thanks again.

 

Keith

[iomkeith]

On 23/04/2021 at 09:20, Keith_L said:

Just wanted to let everyone know that we have moved to the dark side (well the green side really) and put a deposit down on a Land Rover Discovery 2.

 

We're Keith's going in opposite directions.  I've just sold my Discovery 2 after getting my Jeep! 

The Disco is a brilliant off-road vehicle (2" lift & big wheels). I used to say, "it goes everywhere the Defenders go,  only in comfort, with heated seats and air-conditioning". But, being a Land Rover, it was always either broken-down, or looking for its next place to break-down. Practice engaging low-box and keep doing it regularly. Mine was temperamental much of the time and totally seized on a couple of occasions, so just went most places in high!