Platinum Member digger Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 Excellent Jerry. I am against 'nanny state'' , however over my lifetime I have seen many 'accidents' , some of which have happened to me. I cannot understand why some people argue against 'doing things safely, refuse to learn by going on courses ,object to training, resist safety glasses, gloves, electrical insulation and wearing ear defenders etc. I have tried and do try but have also learnt the hard way! I don't care that a cable might fall on the ground, it might not! Perhaps its an act of God although I suspect its more to do with the tension in individual fibres, rather like the candle wick that curves in order to burn, because one strand has been pulled tighter when it was made. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member V Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, digger said: I have tried and do try but have also learnt the hard way! For me it's like insurance. If you haven't got it, you just know that something will happen. If you've got insurance, the chances are that you will never need to claim, but if you do, you were protected. Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and safe working procedures are insurance. I have cut my finger on a winch hook keeper when I wasn't wearing gloves. Had a car fall off a jack that wasn't on jack stands (a roadside puncture). Burnt my chest when I wasn't wearing a welding jacket. Fallen through scaffolding when I wasn't wearing a harness. Hit my head when I wasn't wearing a hard hat. and so on... Now, after having near misses I've learned from each of my mistakes and I try to do it right next time with the PPE. If you see me not doing as I should, shout at me, tell me what I am doing wrong. If I see someone else not working safely, I will do the same. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I am guilty of never having had formal winch training, everything I have learnt has been 'in the field'. I have been fortunate in having found myself with people with much more experience and knowledge when I have needed to use my winch. I would also welcome some JOC winch training. Ideally, IMHO, it would be good if it were part of a multiday event - if it is a one day event it is likely people will be itching to get back to driving and the training may not have their full attention (maybe that would just be me ). One question this thread has raised, that should be easy to answer. I recall hearing somewhere that winches are intended for self recovery, not recovering others. Maybe that differs between 'casual users' like myself and somebody in an 'official capacity' such as recovery teams. Any input appreciated. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member V Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 7 minutes ago, UKTJ said: I recall hearing somewhere that winches are intended for self recovery, not recovering others. When you declare the winch to your vehicle insurer, they will cover the risk for self recovery only. If you are winching other vehicles, you do so at your risk. If you can get the other driver to agree that they will accept all consequences of you assisting in a recovery, then that's your choice to go ahead, otherwise walk away. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 13 minutes ago, V said: When you declare the winch to your vehicle insurer, they will cover the risk for self recovery only. If you are winching other vehicles, you do so at your risk. If you can get the other driver to agree that they will accept all consequences of you assisting in a recovery, then that's your choice to go ahead, otherwise walk away. Thanks for that @V. For completeness, is the situation with pulling somebody with a recovery strap? If you were to damage your vehicle being recovered is the insurance situation different to damaging your vehicle helping somebody else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member digger Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 I take the view that, even though I have insurance, one should behave as if one hasn't! The thing is,how do you know that , whoever, the person is that's giving help, does know what they are doing. Its like like the you tube videos of mechanical tasks, some are very good but many contain bad practices and miss out essentials! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 I am most definitely learning things here, thank you. I have also learnt the dangers of tow ball recovery on a stuck vehicle. what do you do if the vehicle stuck has no recovery points on the rear except the tow ball ? Just asking the question. do you say, “sorry I’m not recovering on the tow ball, due to dangers to myself and my vehicle. You will have to find a better location to be recovered from.” sorry to be a pain in the behind, I don’t know ? How do you deal with that situation???? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 11 hours ago, DanSeldon said: Not sure why you asked the question. You seem to already have all the answers I don’t know, just having a discussion on things I don’t know or have little experience on, asking for advise and peoples thoughts and experiences. some things I do know about, eg: stress strain curves of metal etc. it’s particularly wet and muddy on Salisbury plain at the moment, good chance of getting stuck, so learning and asking questions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 5 minutes ago, Caroline12 said: I am most definitely learning things here, thank you. I have also learnt the dangers of tow ball recovery on a stuck vehicle. what do you do if the vehicle stuck has no recovery points on the rear except the tow ball ? Just asking the question. do you say, “sorry I’m not recovering on the tow ball, due to dangers to myself and my vehicle. You will have to find a better location to be recovered from.” sorry to be a pain in the behind, I don’t know ? How do you deal with that situation???? The discussion is possibly starting to have parallels with a discussion some time back about being insured for driving offroad at JOC events. If one were to take this to the logical conclusion, people may become less willing to recover others, for fear of damaging their own vehicles if they do and / or to avoid an issue if somebody elses vehicle is damaged when they are trying to help recover it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member DanSeldon Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, Caroline12 said: I don’t know, just having a discussion on things I don’t know or have little experience on, asking for advise and peoples thoughts and experiences. some things I do know about, eg: stress strain curves of metal etc. it’s particularly wet and muddy on Salisbury plain at the moment, good chance of getting stuck, so learning and asking questions Just keep Daisy out of that tank wash and you’ll be fine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, DanSeldon said: Just keep Daisy out of that tank wash and you’ll be fine Oh I will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, UKTJ said: The discussion is possibly starting to have parallels with a discussion some time back about being insured for driving offroad at JOC events. If one were to take this to the logical conclusion, people may become less willing to recover others, for fear of damaging their own vehicles if they do and / or to avoid an issue if somebody elses vehicle is damaged when they are trying to help recover it. I get where you’re going, to be honest, that is entirely up to the owner/driver of the recovering vehicle. Their choice. however no one would be left behind, it would just require trained competent persons to recover them. It is your choice to recovery them, you are under no obligation to do so. many years ago, I would not jump start another car in the Lake District, because I had been warned jumping with my car at the time could cause the cpu engine computer to blow. Main dealer informed me to be careful. I did not risk it. But I lent my jump leads to someone else to jump them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member AlexK Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 3 hours ago, UKTJ said: I am guilty of never having had formal winch training In my personal opinion, a winch should never be used by an operator who has not had proper training. I'd go as far as to say I would support limiting their sale unless a certificate of competence can be provided, much like chainsaws in some markets. I recognise that may be an unpopular opinion. In the meantime, I would very strongly urge you to limit its use until you have had a decent level of training. The opportunities to inflict often life-threatening injuries on yourself, others, and damage to other vehicles is just too great. Be smart. Get trained. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member digger Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 Hi Caroline, there are occasions when we find ourselves in a desperate situation. For me, common sense now prevails so- should I use a tow ball? The issue is that the tow ball is made of material designed for steady, relatively low load pulling not big powerful jerks etc! I would look for some alternative to pull on eg in the past I have wrapped a strop around the axle or around the tow bar frame itself. Wishbones too but I don't think i would risk that nowadays because they are often feeble tin pot rubbish. I would also ask myself ''How stuck is the vehicle?'' Sometimes its just a lack of traction, in others ,a wheel(s) is in a deep hole and the car is bottomed out which will require a lot more power! 2 hours ago, Caroline12 said: I am most definitely learning things here, thank you. I have also learnt the dangers of tow ball recovery on a stuck vehicle. what do you do if the vehicle stuck has no recovery points on the rear except the tow ball ? Just asking the question. do you say, “sorry I’m not recovering on the tow ball, due to dangers to myself and my vehicle. You will have to find a better location to be recovered from.” sorry to be a pain in the behind, I don’t know ? How do you deal with that situation???? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 34 minutes ago, digger said: Hi Caroline, there are occasions when we find ourselves in a desperate situation. For me, common sense now prevails so- should I use a tow ball? The issue is that the tow ball is made of material designed for steady, relatively low load pulling not big powerful jerks etc! I would look for some alternative to pull on eg in the past I have wrapped a strop around the axle or around the tow bar frame itself. Wishbones too but I don't think i would risk that nowadays because they are often feeble tin pot rubbish. I would also ask myself ''How stuck is the vehicle?'' Sometimes its just a lack of traction, in others ,a wheel(s) is in a deep hole and the car is bottomed out which will require a lot more power! Thank Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 56 minutes ago, AlexK said: In my personal opinion, a winch should never be used by an operator who has not had proper training. I'd go as far as to say I would support limiting their sale unless a certificate of competence can be provided, much like chainsaws in some markets. I recognise that may be an unpopular opinion. In the meantime, I would very strongly urge you to limit its use until you have had a decent level of training. The opportunities to inflict often life-threatening injuries on yourself, others, and damage to other vehicles is just too great. Be smart. Get trained. I don't think that is unreasonable. So far I have only used my winch three times, on all three occassions I was supervised by somebody with significantly more experience than me and I suspect formal winch training. I have also taken time and effort to carefully observe when others have used winches. At JeepTrek last year I even filmed a winch recovery set up and narrated it so I could look back at it later - that was a particularly tricky situation where two snatch blocks were used to route a winch line around a Jeep and allow it to be pulled forward by another Jeep that was actually behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member spookie the aardvark Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 3 hours ago, Caroline12 said: I am most definitely learning things here, thank you. I have also learnt the dangers of tow ball recovery on a stuck vehicle. what do you do if the vehicle stuck has no recovery points on the rear except the tow ball ? Just asking the question. do you say, “sorry I’m not recovering on the tow ball, due to dangers to myself and my vehicle. You will have to find a better location to be recovered from.” sorry to be a pain in the behind, I don’t know ? How do you deal with that situation???? Both Jerry and myself were involved in rescuing a KJ from an infamous deep puddle at Swindon, yes same one I floated in. The only recovery point was a tow ball, no other recovery option available. It took two of us to pull him out and we both had to go very gently. Not an ideal situation other than leaving the guy stranded. All done very slowly and safely and we got the KJ out. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member spookie the aardvark Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 When I got stuck in the same puddle a very nice gentleman waded in and attached the winch on his Wrangler to my recovery points on the front. He proceeded to winch in and I'm sitting there laughing as Aardvark stayed put and I watched the Wrangler coming towards me instead 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member spookie the aardvark Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 Two Wranglers required to recover one floating Aardvark 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member jerryg Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 Tow balls - I am led to believe some tow balls are designed to snap off in the event of a 'crash' to try and prevent the towing vehicle turning over? or they are cheap chinesium which snap off anyway! Do you know which type you have? So, attach to whatever the tow ball is attached to - that is the tow bar itself. Our Borda trainers do not advocate using the tow ball but are content to attach to the tow bar itself, by what ever way is practical and safe. Soft shackles? But still no 'snatch' recoveries. Basic physics says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So the more force you put in a snatch the more energy is released when something breaks so goodbye windscreen or bonnet or worse! Gently is as gently does. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Black_box_jeep Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 I see reference to soft shackles as a safer option quite frequently, but they aren’t always suitable for use with some recovery points that have sharper edges, or don’t have a large enough hole to pass the soft shackle through. Again, it’s all about understanding and assessing the equipment in use, and how best to limit the risks. We have helped a few jeepers out of sticky situations over the years (and a stuck heavy Land Rover on Salisbury plain) using straps and has nearly always only required a gentle/ steady pull and some common sense. The spectacular rev limit snatch recovery makes great YouTube viewing until it becomes a horror movie. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 10 minutes ago, Black_box_jeep said: The spectacular rev limit snatch recovery makes great YouTube viewing until it becomes a horror movie. Sad reflection on human nature, but I fear the horror story would get many more views. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Caroline12 Posted February 15 Author Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, jerryg said: cheap chinesium Love it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTJ Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, jerryg said: ...or they are cheap chinesium which snap off anyway! Do you know which type you have?... Bit of an aside. The US TJ forum I read has long been a place where suggesting buying anything other than US products would result in an avalanche of rebukes - as you can imagine there is a lot of flag waving and a lot of virtual chants of "USA, USA, USA". It is also the first place I heard the term "chinesium" used in a perjorative way. But recently the debate has become a bit more nuanced and dare I say it worldly. Some of the guys on that forum have worked out that a lot of the products badged as made in the US are not what they seem, as the law requires manufacturing to take place in the US for such a label (though even then I belive it only has to be 70%+ US manufacturing) but says nothing about the source of the raw materials. In a recent debate about bolt in roll cages one poster berated a manufacturer for using cheap Chinese steel to make their cage, saying why it was worthless because of that and at the same time praising a competitor because it was 100% US made. It was a but embarrassing for him when somebody else posted an email where the second company had accidentally admitted all the steel they used came from China. Views seem to have modified a bit after that revelation. Edited February 15 by UKTJ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Member Black_box_jeep Posted February 15 Platinum Member Share Posted February 15 Also probably posted from a phone/ computer made there. Of course they can make some great stuff but when everyone wants a cut and needs the start point to be cheap, then quality will suffer. In my job we buy in a lot of parts from the US. Some USA made stuff is horrible. Some is superb. Some of the big US companies we buy from are rebranding stuff they buy in form China. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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