How often do you use your lockers?

[UKTJ]

I am close to pushing the button on having my TJ regeared and ARB selectable lockers fitted.  But with parts and labour (it is beyond my skill set) will cost c.£5,000, that's a lot of money and I could do a lot of other modifications with that and I want to be sure I am spending my money wisely.

 

So for those of you with selectable lockers, how often do you actually use them off road?

Edited July 26 by UKTJ

[V]

On our coast-to-coast expedition last week I used my front locker once on the Grizedale rock.

When we did B'stard lane in May I didn't use them at all.

At Tuff Terrains and Walter's Arena I use both lockers often but it depends on traction conditions which is why a selectable has an advantage over automatic because you decide when to use them.

 

If I was keeping the 242 transfer case in my '93 XJ it would still be a hard decision to either go for TrueTracs again front and rear or OX-Locker. I have ARBs in my 2001 XJ and although they have served me well they have not been without problems. I would only pick ARB again if there was a significant price advantage over air-operated OX-Locker.

 

The main advantage that an OX has for me over an ARB is the ability to lock on the move. The secondary advantage is that the diff doesn't have to come out for actuator repairs. The disadvantage of an OX is protecting the actuator on the diff cover.

 

 

 

[MGomes]

I have used mine at times... at Tuff Terrains they were used often (and i did not manage to go everywhere) - but I was the only LWV and still have my baby tires... It depends, when I got the JL, haing lockers and sway-bar (disconnect it all the time) were one of the reasons I picked this car

[jeepstertim]

My JTR is factory fitted with front and rear.  Realistically rarely.  I tend to use the rear most if I think there is the risk of failing a climb but will also use both front and rear if I am approaching something boggy.  In most off-road situations, momentum is your friend so engaging before attempting an obstacle is in my mind key (stopping to engage halfway through beats the point for me).

 

Do I need them? I'm not sure as modern ETC/ EBD etc is such a huge aid to mobility but I like having them and ordered a Rubicon for exactly this reason.  I think I have only truely needed them once in the soft sand and I just drove straight out.

 

I don't know what difference it makes to price but may be worth considering just a rear.

Edited July 26 by jeepstertim

[Raakhee]

Once, I've used them once at Walter's Arena last year when I eventually got up the rocks

 

[V]

5 hours ago, jeepstertim said:

I don't know what difference it makes to price but may be worth considering just a rear.

On a TJ you often have to ditch the original carrier to change R&P ratio. There's no real cost saving by not fitting a locker at each end when regearing both axles. If you have to buy a new open carrier you just as well buy a locker instead.

[digger]

Hi UKTJ. 

Mm!  Serious lot of loot that! 

There are other things to consider too!

I had a lunchbox in my front end. It worked really well for£300 and whatever some may say, I had no problems or noise driving on the road at all.

However the third time out was that day at Aldermarston when I broke a drive shaft on 31's. So you may find you need chrome molys (£5/600 each end) and possibly other things too.

I like V's idea of True Tracs which are helical gear Limited Slips. They are very good but were not available when I built my 8.25 so I fitted the' new boy on the block' competitor, a Powertrax Grip pro which so far I am very pleased with.

At the end of the day my limitation is ground clearance more than traction but most things we do are not an issue. Have you read Tim C's post ''Did a few lanes recently'' The  2nd paragraph of his opening statement, I find interesting! I'm beginning to think the same way. The mod costs keep rising, you don't get your money back and I cannot cope with the work any more. I had gr8 fun trying to do things at some of our sites but now I can just drive up! I am not belittling some of our highly modded Jeeps like Vince's, I think they are absolutely  terrific! If I was 20yrs younger I'd be there ,but now, I just want to have a bit of fun!

We all have to make our own choices! 

 If I had the energy I would just help you do the regear etc!  I haven't even recovered from my France jaunt yet!!!

Edited July 26 by digger

[TimC]

……..almost never. Used the rear once going up Breasthigh with rivers of water coming down it. I use the winch much more.
 

This actually feeds back into the discussion on “overmodding” and as with all mods it really depends what you use, or plan on using, you Jeep for. It’s very easy to get carried away with mods for the sake of mods “must get bigger tyres…..must get higher lift” This is very similar to the question that gets asked “ what lift/tyres should I get” it all depends on what you are doing with the vehicle. If you are interested in going to quarries and P&P sites with the intention of pushing your Jeep as far as possible and attempting more and more difficult obstacles then you’ll want lockers. The downside of making your Jeep ever more capable however is that anything less than insanely difficult quarries becomes too easy and less fun. I know this doesn’t exactly apply to lockers since you could simply choose not to engage them but you get the principle. For me I’m not really interested in doing sites and driving hard obstacles simply for the sake of it, some people are (James for example, and his D1 is perfect for that) I like laning and things with more of an expedition feel about them. I used to think that I would go to 35s on my JKU but I have changed my mind. There isn’t a lane in the UK you couldn’t do in a pretty much stock JK and it’s more fun choosing a line and feeling like you’ve driven it than simply bouncing over it as if it wasn’t there.

 

Anyway I digress, if you are into doing P&P sites, get lockers. If you are more into laning then don’t waste your money, spend it on some good camping gear or a winch.

Edited July 26 by TimC

[TimC]

…….Also I agree with Manny, Sway bar disconnects yes, get them use mine all the time, better ride and articulation off road, does wonders for traction…….I think you may already have JKS disconnects though?

[TimC]

……Also, I’m coming at this from a JK/JL perspective where the traction control/ABS tends to compensate a lot for wheel slippage as Jeepstertim says. Not sure about a TJ are they just completely open diffs?

Edited July 26 by TimC

[Ludders]

Quite often. Having had Land Rovers that wheel spin on loose surfaces, or suddenly stopping a spinning wheel, which kills a differential or brakes a drive-shaft.

 

Rear locker, on loose surfaces when climbing to stop sudden wheel spin that flicks rocks backwards at any one behind me, or suddenly stops forward motion.

 

Front locker, when uneven, unstable climbs that involve a lot of articulation, which prevents that sudden loss of grip, or likely to slow forward momentum.

 

In my experience, if the locker is in before you attempt an obstacle, you are more likely to traverse the obstacle safely, easily, without damage to the terrain or vehicle.

 

Edit: no traction control on mine, it's a Rubicon so it's disabled when low range is engaged. 

Edited July 26 by Ludders

[John]

Don’t know tbh 

on my tj had truetracks fitted when regeared and as they come on automatically only felt them come in occasionally on rocks the rest of the time didn’t know if they came in or not but jeep never got stuck so suppose they must have 

 

on the jk I’ve used them a couple of times just incase … have driven around Whitecliff quarry and only used them once ..

 

as for sway bar I used a swayloc kit on my tj … it’s air controlled ( mind I think u can get a manual one now ) I liked the way you can just switch it on and off when on the lanes and road …

 

the jeep will eat all your Money … tbh I love the way you can personalise a Wrangler to the way you want , I smile every time I get in to mine 
 

[jeepstertim]

9 hours ago, Ludders said:

Quite often. Having had Land Rovers that wheel spin on loose surfaces, or suddenly stopping a spinning wheel, which kills a differential or brakes a drive-shaft.

 

Rear locker, on loose surfaces when climbing to stop sudden wheel spin that flicks rocks backwards at any one behind me, or suddenly stops forward motion.

 

Front locker, when uneven, unstable climbs that involve a lot of articulation, which prevents that sudden loss of grip, or likely to slow forward momentum.

 

In my experience, if the locker is in before you attempt an obstacle, you are more likely to traverse the obstacle safely, easily, without damage to the terrain or vehicle.

 

Edit: no traction control on mine, it's a Rubicon so it's disabled when low range is engaged. 

Almost agree....TC is turned off in Low and can also be turned off with a long press of the button.  The Brake Lock Differential (DLD) is active in all modes and in all models on the JL/ JT so you have that as well as the difflocks.

 

Do agree with putting the lockers on before you attempt the obstacle, if you think you 'might' need them, do it before you start..

 

Appreciate this doesn't help the OP with his TJ!

[UKTJ]

15 hours ago, V said:

On a TJ you often have to ditch the original carrier to change R&P ratio. There's no real cost saving by not fitting a locker at each end when regearing both axles. If you have to buy a new open carrier you just as well buy a locker instead.

Yes, if I regeared I would need to change to different carriers.  But unless I am misunderstanding it the cost hierachy is broadly:

New carrier c.£200 (I assume spider gears, etc. can be reused

Truetrac c. £650

ARB c. £1,100

Certainly for the ARB I have been told there would be additional labour due to air routing, etc.

So unless I have misunderstood, for both axles staying open would save at least £1,800 and probably at least £2,000.

 

That said, unlspess I am causing a lot of damage elsewhere I can live with not regearing for a while.  It is only really painful on steep up hill roads, and that happens infrequently.

Edited July 27 by UKTJ

[UKTJ]

15 hours ago, digger said:

I had a lunchbox in my front end. It worked really well for£300 and whatever some may say, I had no problems or noise driving on the road at all.

However the third time out was that day at Aldermarston when I broke a drive shaft on 31's. So you may find you need chrome molys (£5/600 each end) and possibly other things too.

I like V's idea of True Tracs which are helical gear Limited Slips. They are very good but were not available when I built my 8.25 so I fitted the' new boy on the block' competitor, a Powertrax Grip pro which so far I am very pleased with.

This in part is one of the things spinning around my head.  If I go with a locker will I then break shafts and think about going to chromoly shafts?  The problem with chromoly shafts in a Dana 30 is that the weak point becomes the ring and pinion.  Having also discussed axle upgrades online in the past with some very experienced TJ guys in the US, the concern is that the Dana 30 ring and pinion is very likely to break if the axle has been upgraded elsewhere, basically it is the only thing you can't really strengthen.  This is particularly the case in slippery conditions, rather than the big rocks many of them play in.

 

As I understand it if both wheels on an axle have no traction they will spin, whether you have a locker or not (the locker helps where only one wheel has traction).  If the wheels are spinning and you then do get traction and one or both wheels 'grab', that is the point something can break.  In a Dana 30 with stronger shafts that may well mean it is the ring and pinion that break.

 

I guess, in part my concerns about spending this much on a regear / lockers is as much a concern about the durability of the Dana 30 front axle.  The worst possible scenario would be to spend that much money only to destroy the ring and pinion soon afterwards and have to spend more having more new gears fitted.

 

But maybe I over think these things.

[UKTJ]

14 hours ago, TimC said:

……Also, I’m coming at this from a JK/JL perspective where the traction control/ABS tends to compensate a lot for wheel slippage as Jeepstertim says. Not sure about a TJ are they just completely open diffs?

Yes, as far as I know completely open with no form of driver assistance from any traction control.  The rear is fitted with a clutch pack LSD, but they have a finite life and I suspect mine is past or close to past that point.

[UKTJ]

16 hours ago, digger said:

At the end of the day my limitation is ground clearance more than traction but most things we do are not an issue.

I agree on ground clearance.  One of the alternative ways to spend some of the money is a slip yoke eliminator and adjustable control arms, which would allow me to push the transfer case up and install a flatter skid.  I think that could net up to 2" of additional clearance under the centre.

[UKTJ]

The other thing I meant to mention when responding on traction aids is weight.  I believe my little TJ weighs an awful lot less than many later Jeeps.  I suspect this helps it a lot at times and maybe compensates for not having much help with traction.  I was very happy about how it performed in its current form at Tuff Terrains, it did almost everything I asked it to, and to @digger's point I believe the only time I ended up winching was due to me getting high centred on my transfer case skid when trying to play with @V and James in a tougher area. At the recent MJUK event there was a punch hunt and a number of others failed to get to one of the punchs, just before I tried a JLU with roof tent gave it a go but kept getting bogged down in the mud.  No idea if they put their locker on, but they couldn't get to the punch after a few goes.  My guess is that the weight just pushed it down into the mud.  I had a run at it and got there first try, I wonder if the reason I made it was down to the fact my TJ did not get bogged in the mud due to its lighter weight.

 

It also occurs to me now that maybe the fact I have a winch fitted is another consideration.  The winch and winch plate probably cost me around £800, but having it means if a lack of lockers means I am stuck I can probably get myself out of the mess I find myself in without the need for anyone else to be in the right place.  Maybe that was money well spent if it means not having lockers is less of an issue.

Edited July 27 by UKTJ

[TimC]

37 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

But maybe I over think these things.

No, I don’t think you do. It’s a very good thing to think of the consequences down the line. A lot of people will just launch into a mod half cocked and find out later that it has caused issues they didn’t anticipate at the time. The classic is stuffing bigger tyres on but not allowing for the spare. £5k is also a  substantial amount of money that you will not get back. You mentioned on a different thread worrying about depreciation on a new car. 5k on lockers regear and driveline upgrades is an instant 80% loss or more so it’s definitely something worth taking time considering all angles.

Ask yourself the question “ when was the last time/how often do I find myself in situations off road where I’m losing traction and can’t make any progress because my wheels are spinning out and wish I could lock up the diff? I’m guessing the last time was at TuffTerrains. Sometimes I have the most capable vehicle in a group, sometimes the least but I actually quite like it when a vehicle does get stuck because it gives an opportunity for a recovery which is always a bit of fun.

I’m not trying to put you off, just saying that you should, rightly, consider why you need it and don’t just do it because that’s what everyone does.

Of course, if we stuck to that idea too much we wouldn’t have Jeeps at all, they are a hobby after all and doing stuff to them is part of the enjoyment even for it’s own sake. I think that, like Digger has said I have mellowed out a bit and don’t want to do mad stuff so much and keep adding upgrades, sometimes less is actually more.

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, TimC said:

No, I don’t think you do. It’s a very good thing to think of the consequences down the line. A lot of people will just launch into a mod half cocked and find out later that it has caused issues they didn’t anticipate at the time. The classic is stuffing bigger tyres on but not allowing for the spare. £5k is also a  substantial amount of money that you will not get back. You mentioned on a different thread worrying about depreciation on a new car. 5k on lockers regear and driveline upgrades is an instant 80% loss or more so it’s definitely something worth taking time considering all angles.

Ask yourself the question “ when was the last time/how often do I find myself in situations off road where I’m losing traction and can’t make any progress because my wheels are spinning out and wish I could lock up the diff? I’m guessing the last time was at TuffTerrains. Sometimes I have the most capable vehicle in a group, sometimes the least but I actually quite like it when a vehicle does get stuck because it gives an opportunity for a recovery which is always a bit of fun.

I’m not trying to put you off, just saying that you should, rightly, consider why you need it and don’t just do it because that’s what everyone does.

Of course, if we stuck to that idea too much we wouldn’t have Jeeps at all, they are a hobby after all and doing stuff to them is part of the enjoyment even for it’s own sake. I think that, like Digger has said I have mellowed out a bit and don’t want to do mad stuff so much and keep adding upgrades, sometimes less is actually more.

Wise words Tim, it is easy to get caught up on the mod treadmill.

 

I’m not even sure lockers would have helped me at TuffTerrains, I was hung up on the transfer case skid and I am not even sure that more traction would have allowed me to push through it.  Again it was very muddy so likely that all four wheels were spinning, in such a situation I am not sure lockers would have helped, it was not like one wheel was spinning and robbing the other with grip of all torque.  What may have been more help in that scenario is two inches more clearance in the centre of the Jeep giving me a better break over angle.  @V was spotting me, so he may have a different perspective with the benefit of an external view and much, much more experience.

 

Your reference to my dislike of depreciation is good one.  I think the difference here is that I don’t ever plan to part with my TJ, so recovering any spend is not as relevant.  But that could of course just be me trying to self justify

[TimC]

2 hours ago, UKTJ said:

I had a run at it and got there first try,

……less is sometimes more

 

bet it gave you an even better feeling knowing you’d done it without being modded to the eyeballs

[V]

1 hour ago, UKTJ said:

The winch and winch plate probably cost me around £800, but having it means if a lack of lockers means I am stuck I can probably get myself out of the mess I find myself in without the need for anyone else to be in the right place.  Maybe that was money well spent if it means not having lockers is less of an issue.

On the flip side, I have had TrueTracs in my '93 XJ for over twenty years and I never fitted the winch that I bought for it. The TrueTracs enabled me to pick lines that favoured my Jeep's capabilities. When you don't have a winch your driving style develops differently. I found early on that some of my friends used their winch as a psychological crutch and they got stuck more than I did driving the same routes.

 

I still drive like I don't have a winch installed even though I have one on my 2001 XJ. It's winch has only been used once for self recovery and that was when someone else was driving my Jeep. I'm not saying that I don't ever get stuck, I have plenty of tow straps. I have also used my Hi-Lift jack as a hand winch for my '93 more times than I have enjoyed doing so. As with a lot of mods, if you acquire them too soon they can impede your skill development. For me, I made the jump to MT tyres too soon. I think I would have been a better driver by off-roading my Jeep in it's stock form for longer than I did.

 

If you have a winch and think my theory is wrong, a simple test to determine if you have become winch dependant is to remove your winch rope and leave it at home when you next drive off-road or go green laning.

[digger]

Hi UKTJ, Your comment about weight is interesting.

I consider myself really as little better than a beginner at this game compared to folk like V!  However I have learnt in motor sport that generally the less weight the better! What does help is getting the weight distribution such that it acts on the driving wheels (particularly on loose surfaces). It especially helps if one understands how 'weight transfer' works.

I 've said this because I have just come back from France with a friend of mine who for many years competed in off road trials. The first thing he said was ''I think you would be better off if you lost some weight''!

I have certainly been caught by having to do more mods because of the issues caused by the last one. Tim's example of bigger tyres is a good one. Just for a start I have had to build a spare wheel carrier gate to cope with my 33s plus other things and I havn't any where near finished yet!!  All work I didn't want!

I don't wholly agree with the endless criticism of clutch pack LSDs like the Jeep one. I have had three  Jeeps fitted with it. I think they work fine as long as one looks after them properly and the lube is correct.. Rebuilding one is easy and the clutch packs are relatively cheap. The one in my KJ was useless because it was gummed up.   However in an afternoon it was all sorted and worked really well. Ok a helical gear one may be marginally better and more long lasting but who cares,we generally only do low mileage any way. If you don't think it works try putting one back wheel on a slippery surface and the other on a dry one! The old trick of jerking the handbrake on and off can improve things sometimes with any of them and an open diff!

 

Edited July 27 by digger

[V]

21 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

so he may have a different perspective with the benefit of an external view and much, much more experience.

You were driving uphill on ground that had ruts created by bigger tyres than mine. Where we all had a problem was on the crest of a hump. James and I had to make multiple attempts too. My rear axle diff hangs low and it cut a groove in the mud. If I hadn't used momentum I would have been bellied out too. You did amazingly well to get as far as you did before winching. Winching was the best solution for dealing with the turn immediately ahead of you.

[V]

45 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

I don’t ever plan to part with my TJ, so recovering any spend is not as relevant.  But that could of course just be me trying to self justify

I don't think of my Jeep as a car, but more as a device to access an experience. It's like an on-going adventure holiday.