Transpirenaica 2023

[stinger108]

Afternoon all,

 

After a casual chat with digger I have done some research to find the feasibility to cross the Pyrenees, East to West, as an alternative to the already organized expensive commercial expeditions where each one of us will have their own expenses only.

 

The total distance is c. 600 miles and, doing as much off road as possible, it can be completed in 8 to 9 days, with 8 to 10 hours of driving each day. Total including trip to Spain and back should be around two weeks.

 

To go to the starting point in Colera, Spain, it can be driven crossing France (750 miles around 12 hours from Calais) or take a ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao (33 hours sail) and then drive from Bilbao to Colera (440 miles around 7 and a half hours). Best way to return is a ferry Bilbao to Portsmouth, Tuesdays and Saturdays, 31 hours.

 

The track points on the map below are from an existing route completed in 2021, as a base line for discussion based on achievable travel time every day and acceptable lodging (towns offering camping, glamping and hotels to cover all demands). Also with supermarkets and gas stations in the vicinity.

 

The route crosses four different areas of Spain (Catalonia, Aragon, Navarra and Euskal-Herria) with different regulations and permissions for off-road driving which I will further investigate with the authorities to avoid conflicts.

 

Best time to do is in spring, no sooner than early May to avoid snow, no latter than late June-early July to avoid tourist massifications and fire prevention restrictions.

 

So, is anyone interested in the idea and willing to join the discussion so we can start interchange of ideas?

 

Ignacio

 

[V]

I have been sketching a shorter Pyrenees route plan, but with more of the route in France. 10 day trip, 2 days to get there, 2 days to get home, 6 days in the Pyrenees. Four days remaining out of a two week break to meander back home or have a rest afterwards.

 

I have not done the coast-to-coast before. On a previous Pyrenees trip the days spent in Spain were hot and dusty, while those in France were cooler and comfortable. Some sections of the route at high altitude in France still had snow in early May. The odd patch of snow added extra difficulty and enjoyment.

 

I have experience long distance driving 8 to 12 hours each day. It's exhausting, especially if you are in hot weather with no air-conditioning. When there is distance to cover and a deadline to arrive, you don't have much time to enjoy sightseeing along the way. It is particularly hard on passengers that are not driving. As a driver, my personal limit is 800 miles a day, 500 miles being a tolerable daily maximum. At my age I can still achieve a 10 hour driving day with two or three stops. My passengers have a four to five hour daily maximum with regular stops. This means no journey leg longer than 2 hours.

 

Off road distances travelled per day and average speeds are going to be a lot shorter. You also need to allow time for breakdowns. The more vehicles in your group, the more likely you are to lose time for breakdowns. I think estimating 20mph off road for 4 hours = 80 miles, and 40mph tarmac for 2 hours = 80 miles, 160 miles per day - perhaps 100 to 200 is a reasonable goal for an off road expedition holiday.

 

2 hours ago, stinger108 said:

Bilbao to Colera (440 miles around 7 and a half hours)

That's an average speed of 60mph without stopping for the entire journey.

 

If I got a cross channel ferry and drove my XJ the entire distance there and back, my fuel spend would be £1100. Getting a ferry to and from Bilbao and only driving the Pyrenees, my fuel spend would be £400. I did check ferry prices recently, but I can't remember what they were and I don't have my notes to hand right now.

[Deniz]

we recently completed a Portugal - Spain tour along the coast line and took the ferry. The ferry price was £1000 and I thought maybe driving from France would be a better choice. It's a great topic btw @stinger108, similar route is on my future plans  

[BLUE STAR]

Looks really  good for sure.

Haven't been anywhere since the Prof. Pfizer 'magical elixir' mandates,  still don't know if I'm allowed out the country yet, as I haven't checked ?

[digger]

Well, I would love to do this!  However , such punishing schedules might be ok for you young folk,  but  even if I managed it,  I would be totally wacked for weeks after, even if I'm fully recovered healthwise by the time we go!  I'm afraid I would not go, if only for fear of letting down  everyone else. I would probably opt for the ferry, even if I had a driving passenger. I guess the ferry price will vary enormously depending on when. I personally would prefer cooler than hotter and snow would be brill!  may is really nice for the Med!  The time getting to and from the venue would not be an issue , I would just take my time, although convoying with others would be good. Belgium was a huge effort for me. Had I not had a passenger to share the driving it would not have been half as much fun .

The thing is, it's not easy finding passengers, even with the free sick bags!!

 

My ideal would be a much more leisurely affair. A green laning/off road holiday really with plenty of opportunity to sample local fair along the way. Based on my experience on 'Jeep Trek' I think 6 hrs off road driving daily would be gr8.

I know some Jeepers (Wild Jeeper for one I think) have done this before. What are your thoughts?

Edited October 18, 2022 by digger

[stinger108]

I think my assumptions were less ambitious than yours: 600 miles in 8-9 days is an average of 60 to 75 miles per day and 8 to 10 hours driving refers to "on activity" (if the car starts moving at, say 9am, ends at 5pm to 7pm that day) including stops, rests, sightseeing, etc.

[V]

60 to 75 miles per day is fine. 10 active hours also.

 

A coast-to-coast trip from Bilbao is going to be closer to 900 miles, 450 outbound, 450 return.

Driving from Calais to San Sebastian is 700 miles, a circular route starting at a sea port in northern France, driving the Pyrenees and back to the same sea port will be 1800 to 2000 miles depending on the route.

 

A ten day 2000 mile road trip from the UK averages out at 200 miles per day or some days will just be spent on motorways to make more time for the slow stuff. If camping for most of it, planning ahead and booking a hotel room for the end long road days is a good idea, particularly if you are arriving in the dark of night.

 

A one way ferry to or from Bilbao would knock off 700 miles of driving, but takes 2 days. 1300 miles / 8 days = 162.5 miles/day which is within my initial estimate.

 

Ignacio, have you driven any of the routes in your plan before?

Edited October 18, 2022 by V

[Gerald F]

We have driven to Spain once or twice a year for about twenty years. We usually take a ferry from Portsmouth, and either drive through France, or go to Bilbao/Santander (the former is cheaper). When you look at costs and timing, you need to consider fuel, overnight accommodation and motorway tolls in France vs. the more expensive Biscay ferry. There's not a lot of difference. On top of that, there are comfort considerations of long hours in a car (a WK2 is really comfy), seasickness if the sea crossing is rough, and sightseeing on the way. We can do Caen to Alicanté in two days and still stop to look around, but we sometimes take a week touring instead. We share the driving, and sometimes tow boats, trailers or a caravan. It's much easier driving in France and Spain; away from the cities everyone is so much less aggressive and the traffic density so much lower than in the UK.

If the weather is OK, we like to spend a little time exploring tracks in the Pyrenées; our favourite so far is from Andorra to the village of Tor, and then further West. Even just taking the old road over the Somport pass is good fun. Being both somewhat elderly, we don't do single vehicle trips over very poor/challenging terrain, since we aren't fit enough to walk out more than a few miles if we get stuck, but we are always prepared to turn back, and I think that in late spring or early autumn there would still probably be enough passers by to lend a hand most days.

 

The cloudy picture shows a track near Aix-les-Thermes, the sunny one a bridge approaching Tor (one Jeep at a time, please!). As you can see the weather is, as usual, crap on the French side and nice on the Spanish – Southern – slopes. They were taken on consecutive days. I think you could have a lot of fun as a small, independent group, especially if you were prepared to camp out occasionally. Almost every village will have some accommodation, however.

 

Enjoy!

 

[Vernon]

Years ago my son and I took the RR to Northern Spain to explore the Jeep Trails in the Picos de Europa.  Best trip ever!

As my other son now lives in France we use Ferries a lot and so I make some suggestions.

 

Dover Calais to far to the East for us - and subject to horrendous stoppages out of the blue.

 

Eurotunnel is excellent but again too far to the east to be practical for us.  Do remember LPG vehicles not allowed.

 

DFDS Newhaven Dieppe is great.  More of a “Truckers” ferry IMO - but all the better for that.

 

We normally go Portsmouth or Poole to Cherbourg, Caen or St Malo using Brittany Ferries as having found Brittany Ferries better than other Lines we joined there Club Voyage which gives 30% of ticket prices as well as £10 discount per person on meals.

 

Its not cheap to join at £70 joining fee plus £70 annual fee so £140 in first year!! - but as we use the Ferries a lot in the last year we saved over £340 for an annual cost now of £70.

 

Plus our meals on the Ferry are either Free or very cheap.

 

Pics are from our last trip into St Malo - a great breakfast which with our two discounts should have cost us just 75p - but they let us off!!

 

Eaten whilst watching the sunrise.

 

 

[Vernon]

20 hours ago, stinger108 said:

Afternoon all,

 

After a casual chat with digger I have done some research to find the feasibility to cross the Pyrenees, East to West, as an alternative to the already organized expensive commercial expeditions where each one of us will have their own expenses only.

 

The total distance is c. 600 miles and, doing as much off road as possible, it can be completed in 8 to 9 days, with 8 to 10 hours of driving each day. Total including trip to Spain and back should be around two weeks.

 

To go to the starting point in Colera, Spain, it can be driven crossing France (750 miles around 12 hours from Calais) or take a ferry from Portsmouth to Bilbao (33 hours sail) and then drive from Bilbao to Colera (440 miles around 7 and a half hours). Best way to return is a ferry Bilbao to Portsmouth, Tuesdays and Saturdays, 31 hours.

 

The track points on the map below are from an existing route completed in 2021, as a base line for discussion based on achievable travel time every day and acceptable lodging (towns offering camping, glamping and hotels to cover all demands). Also with supermarkets and gas stations in the vicinity.

 

The route crosses four different areas of Spain (Catalonia, Aragon, Navarra and Euskal-Herria) with different regulations and permissions for off-road driving which I will further investigate with the authorities to avoid conflicts.

 

Best time to do is in spring, no sooner than early May to avoid snow, no latter than late June-early July to avoid tourist massifications and fire prevention restrictions.

 

So, is anyone interested in the idea and willing to join the discussion so we can start interchange of ideas?

 

Ignacio

 

Hi - Further to my post above - I would suggest it is worth considering using Portsmouth or Poole rather than Dover.

 

The M3 / M27 can get you to Portsmouth very quickly and the overnight ferry to St Malo in particular drops you into France at the bottom Western side of the Cherbourg peninsula.   This saves a huge amount of driving in France from Calais.

 The roads from St Malo are excellent - we travel down Rennes Nantes Santes Bordeaux etc.

 

From Bordeaux you can choose East or West Biarritz or Perpignan.

 

The overnight Ferry is expensive - but you save a shed load of fuel and an overnight hotel stop.

[digger]

I agree with lots here. 

The Picos  and also Matienzo are nice areas, although my experience there is not off roading.

If I didn't go by ferry to Spain itself, I would also go via Portsmouth. I haven't tried St Malo but Caen is good too and you don't have to go overnight.

I used to use the ferries a lot, mainly Brittany. I have a couple of tips that can save you money which still worked when we went across to Belgium on P&O.

Sorry I'm not willing to post them but if anyone would like to ask me at an event or give me a ring I'll explain.

 

V, i'm interested to know how the off roading days we did on 'Jeep Trek' compare with what you are describing in this post?  I'm not worried about getting there and back, only how tough it will be,day after day,  when we are doing the objective.

[stinger108]

For clarity, the average daily milage refers to off road days only. Just for the shake of the example starting on a Monday it can looks like:

-Monday: cross France (Calais/Caen/St Malo to Colera in northeast of Spain), 10 to 12 hours driving plus stops. Being myself born in Spain I have done it many times and can confirm that it is long, boring and toll expensive but easy to complete on one day (or a day and a half) as it is all motorway.

-Tuesday to Wednesday following week: 9 days of off-road crossing the Pyrenees with an average of 60 to 70 miles per day.

-Thursday and Friday: hang around the area, Donostia is one of the best cities in Spain for food and pintxos (aka tapas).

-Saturday: morning drive to Bilbao, ferry sails at 1pm.

-Sunday arrive in Portsmouth 20:45.

 

The alternative on ferry on the outbound leg should be:

-Thursday 9pm sail from Portsmouth.

-Friday: on board

-Saturday, Sunday and Monday: ferry arrives to Bilbao Saturday 8am; then drive from Bilbao to Colera (450 miles) across south of France or north of Spain, both worth to known.

Then this connects with the schedule above.

 

V, to your question above, I have done most of the Pyrenees on motorcycle, never on dirty tracks. Reading in blogs, most of the tracks are not classified as difficult but easy with a few moderate; biggest concern is locked gates that forces an unexpected change on the route. and your ratio 4:2 (two thirds off road, one third tarmac) is quite right on most of the tracks.

 

Picos de Europa will be part of the Transcantabrica, next after the transpyrenees  

 

 

[V]

4 hours ago, digger said:

V, i'm interested to know how the off roading days we did on 'Jeep Trek' compare with what you are describing in this post?  I'm not worried about getting there and back, only how tough it will be,day after day,  when we are doing the objective.

Thinking about ten 'active hours' per day, roughly 8am start, 6pm finish. Within that time the actual number of driving hours will be much less. It is difficult to estimate as I don't have any recent experience of the routes that I am looking at and I don't have the GPS track points for those that I have done with me (in storage).

 

I think if the off road driving is challenging 4 to 6 hours with little or no tarmac would be a maximum.

If the off road sections are moderate 4 to 6 with 1 to 2 hours of tarmac, 6 to 7 max driving hours.

If the off road sections are easy no different to a tarmac only day, 6 to 7 driving hours maximum.

 

Looking at non-English road books and GPS routes it is very difficult to determine the trail ratings used to describe them. Descriptions vary from Easy to Expert but if they don't have photos of the obstacles and the vehicles they are meaningless. Something that I would find easy in my XJ could be considered expert level or impossible by someone else in an unmodified XJ. Finding video for each route segment on YouTube is the key but uploaders rarely give the GPS coordinates so local knowledge goes a long way. This is the real value of a local guide, or someone in the group that has fresh experience of the routes.

 

[V]

If we have to break camp and reset every day, driving hours will be reduced accordingly. Some people are going to be faster than others at this. A reasonable amount of time at the start and end of the day needs to be included within the active hours, reducing the driving hours and the distance travelled accordingly. If we have to setup camp each night, we need arrive at least an hour before sunset.

[V]

The tour company '4x4 Wales' has videos of their Pyrenees trips. They charge for their GPX files.

[V]

 

[V]

This one is in Auvergne. It could be driven en-route to the Pyrenees for a trip that does coast-to-coast or just a section of the Pyrenees.

 

 

 

[digger]

Just another idea. Do we have to move on every day? How about some days where we stay 2 nights, relieving camp effort and giving some time for poking about etc. I guess  Bnb  etc is an option for some nights too?

[digger]

I think Vs vids are gr8, although I think the rocky one would be beyond the YJ!

Hang on though. There's no particular reason why I fancied the Pyrenees when I talked to V and subsequently Stinger.  

Maybe V has a gr8 idea here. There are clearly lots of possible trips/mountain ranges  in Europe, many of which must be a lot easier and cheaper to get to! I am aware that a number of JOC folk have done the Pyrenees and at least one said he wouldn't do it again!  Maybe there are others who feel the same!

Should we consider other possible venues? Ideas? Countries?  France/ Belgium/Germany etc!

Edited October 19, 2022 by digger

[stinger108]

wow with the videos!!

 

I use wikiloc where you can find million of tracks and download GPX file (and other formats) for free. problem is most of the route description and comments are in spanish and photos are mainly for waypoints. another very good thing is the information given on the route on the right of the screen, including moving time and elapse time. worth to have a look and if you fancy Easter eggs you can search for some of my contributions 

 

As wikiloc is oriented as a community I am planning to contact directly contributors to get details, photos, videos, etc. as an example of that https://www.wikiloc.com/offroading-trails/transpirenaica-4x4-defender-2021-87345259 where the author refers to his instagram channel for the videos.

 

To the idea of having a base for a couple of days I am very supportive. as a matter of fact I have seen some guided tours that do the same https://ardventures.co.uk/pyrenees-hotels-navarre-and-aragon-and-or-les-to-andorra-4x4-tour-29th-september-to-15th-of-october-2023/

 

And of course any other option closer in Europe I am on. some good examples in wikiloc too.

 

[stinger108]

I mean I use wikiloc for routes in Spain as being an spanish platform has hundreds of them. others in outdooractive 

[UKTJ]

I can’t make a definitive commitment without a better idea on dates, but I would certainly be interested in principle.

 

Personally I’d be tempted to do a longer ferry at least one way to reduce epic motorway journeys as I don’t really fancy 10-12 hours at the wheel in the TJ.  The other thing that occurs to me, as a novice on such trips is what in the way of spares and tools would be sensible to take.  With camping gear to take as well some careful packing may be required Though if I can persuade SWMBO to come probably B&Bs, etc. would be the option for us.

Edited October 20, 2022 by UKTJ

[digger]

There's no reason why some participants camp and others BnB or do both on different days! We've all been to events where everyone does their own thing!

[Gerald F]

The obvious route is Caen or Calais to the East end of the Pyrenées, via French motorways and the rather wonderful Milhaud viaduct, transit the mountain route, then back via the N10/A10,  or else on to Bilbao and a different ferry. The outward boat is best taken overnight, so you have a nice, early start and get on the motorway before the morning rush hour. That, potentially, puts Colera within a day’s journey if you have two drivers. There are plenty of places to stop off if that’s too far; we usually get somewhere on Booking.com in the late afternoon as we go.

If there is very much in the mountains like the French raid videos, you will need a couple of months to complete the transit, winching through foot deep mud as the snows melt. The French are crazy; I’ve seen them at 10,000’ in the High Atlas with a few 2CV’s.  However, there are probably enough tracks to allow the passage of ordinary 4x4’s with little difficulty beyond a few rocks falling on the road. It will still be very exciting!

Late May sounds quite interesting for a less challenging trip, however, and we may well be passing that way about then, so I’ll follow the thread to see if dates and route might be within our capacity.

[stinger108]

Further research based on the comments and ideas given above.

 

On a map I have drawn the outbound alternatives with mileage and driving time (as provided by google, not including stop time). 

 

Also I have run a simulation of the routes. for running the simulation I had to choose a date and I took the w/e of June 2nd as Marquenterre happens on that w/e and can be a nice way to save one channel crossing if someone is planning to attend. you will see one of the routes is coming from Marquenterre.

 

Cost of ferries in the simulation is based on 2 persons, one car and a 4 berth cabin.

 

Please note all info is to help in the discussion, not trying to pre-define dates, routes, or even destination.

 

Transpirenaica 2023.pdf GaiaGPS-2022-10-21T11_27_50.pdf