Today I have had to call Jeep assist again…

[MGomes]

1 hour ago, V said:

You are certainly not having much luck with your Wrangler. It does sound strange that a bad earth for the ABS will affect so many systems.

 

I'm wondering if your Jeep has an electronics timing related fault. A slow acknowledgement on one safety system cascades to blocking or slowing the acknowledgement of other systems.

 

Does your Jeep have a physical ignition key? Or is it push button start with a wireless authentication fob? If you have another way to start your Jeep try that to see if the fault travels.

Push button alone… I can’t try anything as the car is at the dealership - A faulty ABS cable with prevent the car from starting as the car seems itself unsafe to drive… the wonders of new electronics… I am sure that was one of the reasons (as this was the reason given by Snows back in October, but they didn’t replace bandying, just stated that mud would make the wrangler not work - Note the ABS unit is even higher than the air intake…)

The car now starts (a reset on the system does that) - but the engine light was on and other alerts… I will speak with them on Monday and get them to check with Jeep tech if they should have settings different on the car as it has a lift (the car was sold to me by Jeep as “standard” but it has in fact a 2” terrafirma lift on it) - so I’m wondering if this has an impact - I mentioned it to them, but not sure if they paid attentions…

[TimC]

It’s weird what things interfere with each other on modern cars, I had a wiring/grounding fault on the cable assembly that runs from the front left of the Jeep behind the front bumper and up into the engine bay. Kept throwing up all sorts of faults including ABS. JScan reported back wheel speed sensor errors, lights would come on all over the dash especially when wet, the fuel gauge would intermittently drop to empty.Took ages to find, the dealer tech found it in the end but it wasn’t easy.

[MGomes]

12 minutes ago, TimC said:

It’s weird what things interfere with each other on modern cars, I had a wiring/grounding fault on the cable assembly that runs from the front left of the Jeep behind the front bumper and up into the engine bay. Kept throwing up all sorts of faults including ABS. JScan reported back wheel speed sensor errors, lights would come on all over the dash especially when wet, the fuel gauge would intermittently drop to empty.Took ages to find, the dealer tech found it in the end but it wasn’t easy.

Clearly… I have asked them to take their time (so that it gets fixed for once) - nothing wrong mechanically with the car… clear electric gremlin!

[Ludders]

The ABS is an ancillary assistance system and not the main brake system. In the event of failure, the hydraulic system is still present so there is no need for the system to cause a none start. That's not how it works...

 

I suspect you have a high speed CAN network fault. As the data is critical it travels at high speed. They are 2 wires twisted together with information travelling along that is the opposite to each other, for self checking purposes. So even if one circuit fails it should still run in some capacity. Loss of airbag or abs won't cause a cutout, or no start. Loss of engine communications will. However, if the data is corrupt, that can cause a cutout or non start too due to the modules on the system being confused. 

If the car has been looked at previously, it may have been a bad ABS earth fault, but bad practice by a technician when testing the system may have created another fault. One of the most common post electrical repair failures is caused by "front probing" of a multi-plug. This is when the test probe is pushed into the female terminal to check for power, signals etc. 

The slightly enlarged terminal creates a loose connection, this then randomly looses connection going over certain bumps or as the wiring is manipulated by the engine rocking etc

 

Out of interest have you had any internal accessories fitted utilising the interior auxiliary wiring/fuses? (Behind the glovebox is a series of network bridges/connectors, I'm just wondering if they had been disturbed).

[UKTJ]

Sorry to hear the issues are not resolved.

[MGomes]

7 hours ago, Ludders said:

The ABS is an ancillary assistance system and not the main brake system. In the event of failure, the hydraulic system is still present so there is no need for the system to cause a none start. That's not how it works...

 

I suspect you have a high speed CAN network fault. As the data is critical it travels at high speed. They are 2 wires twisted together with information travelling along that is the opposite to each other, for self checking purposes. So even if one circuit fails it should still run in some capacity. Loss of airbag or abs won't cause a cutout, or no start. Loss of engine communications will. However, if the data is corrupt, that can cause a cutout or non start too due to the modules on the system being confused. 

If the car has been looked at previously, it may have been a bad ABS earth fault, but bad practice by a technician when testing the system may have created another fault. One of the most common post electrical repair failures is caused by "front probing" of a multi-plug. This is when the test probe is pushed into the female terminal to check for power, signals etc. 

The slightly enlarged terminal creates a loose connection, this then randomly looses connection going over certain bumps or as the wiring is manipulated by the engine rocking etc

 

Out of interest have you had any internal accessories fitted utilising the interior auxiliary wiring/fuses? (Behind the glovebox is a series of network bridges/connectors, I'm just wondering if they had been disturbed).

This is great advice (might bring it up with them) - nothing has been fitted using the aux fuses, the car is as sold from Jeep

[digger]

Hi, my approach would be different so this is not advice, just my attitude. Knowing you as I do ,I hope you appreciate my frankness.

I've had lots of Landies and Jeeps . Most of my friends outside of JOC have Landies. For me its a no brainer which make is the most reliable - Jeep .

Having said that, I  believe most makes have the odd bad car, ''Friday afternoon model''. I came across them in the motor trade and I I've had the pleasure of buying three new , one BMW(lasted 6 months of hell from new ), one Landy(3months) , one Mazda(4 months) and one Scirroco (bought 1 year old used lasted 4 months). The step I took in each case cost me a little short term but saved a lot in agro. I traded the car in for another! I think it was the right decision for me in every case. I might upgrade, say to a Rubicon or change from diesel to petrol or different seats or something like that just to give the dealer a reason why I was changing!

This is just me! Everyone has different priorities in cars! My no 1 is reliability and 2nd is comfort,but we are all different!

Food for thought!

Edited May 7, 2022 by digger
something missed out!

[MGomes]

11 minutes ago, digger said:

Hi, my approach would be different so this is not advice, just my attitude. Knowing you as I do ,I hope you appreciate my frankness.

I've had lots of Landies and Jeeps . Most of my friends outside of JOC have Landies. For me its a no brainer which make is the most reliable - Jeep .

Having said that, I  believe most makes have the odd bad car, ''Friday afternoon model''. I came across them in the motor trade and I I've had the pleasure of buying three new , one BMW(lasted 6 months of hell from new ), one Landy(3months) , one Mazda(4 months) and one Scirroco (bought 1 year old used lasted 4 months). The step I took in each case cost me a little short term but saved a lot in agro. I traded the car in for another! I think it was the right decision for me in every case. I might upgrade, say to a Rubicon or change from diesel to petrol or different seats or something like that just to give the dealer a reason why I was changing!

This is just me! Everyone has different priorities in cars! My no 1 is reliability and 2nd is comfort,but we are all different!

Food for thought!

All opinions are valid and appreciated! This is something that I have discussed actually with a few of the guys already… i have done this once when I lost confidence in the car I had (funny as it is it was a Mercedes ) - I have considered part exchange it, but I do like the Jeep and am also worried with what seems to be lack of support in the southwest… do I replace it with another Wrangler, do I turn to the “dark side” as @spookie the aardvark calls it? Do I just ping Ineos that is very keen to replace any Landies or Jeeps to showcase their new Grenadier? It’s funny how you get attached to a type of car and the a wrangler suits me… replacing this one currently would mean getting another used one (so what gremlins would that one bring)… oh if only I would win the lottery

[digger]

Hi M, these few thoughts are just my opinion after 50+ years of ownership.

I'm afraid winning the lottery doesn't help with these issues. a friend bought a new Aston a few years ago. It cost a fortune but gave him so much trouble he sold after a year!  I've had lots of new and used cars . Nowadays I'm unlikely to buy another new car unless its a cracking deal! I don't like depreciation! First I have a road test of at least 100 miles to ensure seat comfort, in the nearest car I can find!  If dealer says no ,find another!  'Road tests'  - bin, they may not have even happened! Check out common issues with the model you are interested in! Nothing is guaranteed. Do not hurry, there's plenty out there and the sellers are more desperate to sell than I am to buy!

I think the trick with used is to do everything you can to check it out. Clearly some mechanical and body work  knowledge is a good start. I always look for low miles , low owners (1 private  preferred),good service history. Beware , the latter can be faked so check out.  I always ask dealers questions on the email before I view the car. I often travel long distances for the right car! I want to know if the dealer will allow me to inspect the car underneath on a ramp. No , walk away! Do they have the actual log book?  I want to know about the previous owner! Is the mileage genuine? What service history? Who did it? Who was the original supplier? Ring these folk up! You can get the warranty claim history. This tells you a lot!  Eg. My GK , 156 miles away.  I found out that the first/only  owner sounded the right type to look after the car. He had it serviced from new and it had only one warranty claim in week three (failed door mirror). He had two other cars and no kids so mileage at 6 years 36K sounded likely. I ring them up too if i can get a number!  I always arrange a proper drive test for a reasonable distance, say 10-20miles. Don't be afraid to test everything!  Make a checklist! Get the reg no, do a search once it sounds good enough for a view.

Hope these brief points help and are not 'teaching granny'! Good luck! Chat next time I see you if you would like more tips.

 

[MGomes]

4 hours ago, digger said:

Hi M, these few thoughts are just my opinion after 50+ years of ownership.

I'm afraid winning the lottery doesn't help with these issues. a friend bought a new Aston a few years ago. It cost a fortune but gave him so much trouble he sold after a year!  I've had lots of new and used cars . Nowadays I'm unlikely to buy another new car unless its a cracking deal! I don't like depreciation! First I have a road test of at least 100 miles to ensure seat comfort, in the nearest car I can find!  If dealer says no ,find another!  'Road tests'  - bin, they may not have even happened! Check out common issues with the model you are interested in! Nothing is guaranteed. Do not hurry, there's plenty out there and the sellers are more desperate to sell than I am to buy!

I think the trick with used is to do everything you can to check it out. Clearly some mechanical and body work  knowledge is a good start. I always look for low miles , low owners (1 private  preferred),good service history. Beware , the latter can be faked so check out.  I always ask dealers questions on the email before I view the car. I often travel long distances for the right car! I want to know if the dealer will allow me to inspect the car underneath on a ramp. No , walk away! Do they have the actual log book?  I want to know about the previous owner! Is the mileage genuine? What service history? Who did it? Who was the original supplier? Ring these folk up! You can get the warranty claim history. This tells you a lot!  Eg. My GK , 156 miles away.  I found out that the first/only  owner sounded the right type to look after the car. He had it serviced from new and it had only one warranty claim in week three (failed door mirror). He had two other cars and no kids so mileage at 6 years 36K sounded likely. I ring them up too if i can get a number!  I always arrange a proper drive test for a reasonable distance, say 10-20miles. Don't be afraid to test everything!  Make a checklist! Get the reg no, do a search once it sounds good enough for a view.

Hope these brief points help and are not 'teaching granny'! Good luck! Chat next time I see you if you would like more tips.

 

That brilliant- thank you  

Hank fits the profile, 2 1/2 years, 13k miles, 1 owner from new, sold by main dealership with 2.5 years warranty

let’s give these couple weeks to Jeep as they asked… the fact this current dealership was happy to open the bonnet and explain he work they did was promising - but I might start speaking to Jeep about alternatives…

[digger]

I became a self employed car trader early 70s. The sales manager I had learnt the most off was a really decent guy who knew his business. His parting advice to me was ''don't ever,ever trust anyone in the motor trade'' . That was the best bit of advice I ever heard!

[Raakhee]

Really feel for you Manny. Especially as both Caroline and I had such a good time driving Hank. Phil has loads of good points. Maybe it would be time to consider maybe exchanging Hank for another Rubicon Considering that Hank has spent twice the amount of time in the shop as you have had to drive. 

 

To be honest, I'm kinda nervous that mine will have issues when it finally arrives .

[MGomes]

1 hour ago, Raakhee said:

Really feel for you Manny. Especially as both Caroline and I had such a good time driving Hank. Phil has loads of good points. Maybe it would be time to consider maybe exchanging Hank for another Rubicon Considering that Hank has spent twice the amount of time in the shop as you have had to drive. 

 

To be honest, I'm kinda nervous that mine will have issues when it finally arrives .

This will be the “final drop” - there are issues with these cars, but not at this extent (and you know well how I use it) - let’s hope that Jeep gets it right and fixes it… 

[V]

When Jeep's own franchised technicians fail to resolve a recurring problem on a vehicle in warranty, they not only disappoint the customer that owns the faulty vehicle, they disappoint all Jeep enthusiasts. Those that aspire to own the same model someday, will always remember the faults that plagued the technicians, and dread that it might happen to them too. The damage done is far bigger than just one customer, some of us are unlikely to buy new again and will hang on to the reliable Jeeps we currently own. This is a very, very serious problem that needs attention at the highest level.

 

Some time ago, Jeep appointed pointless brand ambassadors from irrelevant sports that had nothing to do with those that use their Jeeps off road. They failed to recognise that people like Manny are the real brand ambassadors. I am very disappointed that Jeep UK have not stepped in to guarantee 100% resolution of this problem. You should have had a replacement vehicle after three failed fix attempts. If the product has become so vulnerable due to the tech shoved into it, then Jeep and Stellantis have some improvements to make before the brand becomes as irrelevant as Lancia in their portfolio.

[MGomes]

7 hours ago, V said:

When Jeep's own franchised technicians fail to resolve a recurring problem on a vehicle in warranty, they not only disappoint the customer that owns the faulty vehicle, they disappoint all Jeep enthusiasts. Those that aspire to own the same model someday, will always remember the faults that plagued the technicians, and dread that it might happen to them too. The damage done is far bigger than just one customer, some of us are unlikely to buy new again and will hang on to the reliable Jeeps we currently own. This is a very, very serious problem that needs attention at the highest level.

 

Some time ago, Jeep appointed pointless brand ambassadors from irrelevant sports that had nothing to do with those that use their Jeeps off road. They failed to recognise that people like Manny are the real brand ambassadors. I am very disappointed that Jeep UK have not stepped in to guarantee 100% resolution of this problem. You should have had a replacement vehicle after three failed fix attempts. If the product has become so vulnerable due to the tech shoved into it, then Jeep and Stellantis have some improvements to make before the brand becomes as irrelevant as Lancia in their portfolio.

That’s a very good point! And Lancia’s were great cars - back in Portugal they did not have the rust issues like here (imagine that) so the brand was strong into the 90’s….

if only the ppl from Jeep would read comments like these from ppl like as (as you say brand enthusiasts that actually pass the real feedback of its success)

[UKTJ]

I was tempted to post this a few days back, but held back as I felt it might a bit like I would be ‘talking up my own book’ as they would say in the banking world.  Given the direction of the thread now I have decided I will post.

 

I have found your experience pretty shocking.  To be honest it makes me think the situation I am in with an old(er) Jeep that is very much just a fun car and an extremely reliable, practical daily driver is the best place to be.  I know personal circumstance and preference result in different decisions by different people, but I do wonder if it is an option you might consider.  I am sure with the proceed from Hank* you could buy yourself a sensible daily driver that would be comfortable, practical for dogs, etc. and much more economical than Hank to run and still leave change to buy an older Jeep just for off roading fun.

 

I get than Hank is a much cooler daily driver than a mass market mid sized estate car.  But then most of the time you have owned Hank he has not actually been your daily driver.  Any issue with the older, fun only Jeep would not inconvenience you on a daily basis and may well be a lot cheaper to fix.
 

Just a thought I wanted to throw into the pot.

 

* And I do not mean from you selling, but rather from a return to Jeep for a mileage adjusted refund.

[TimC]

10 hours ago, V said:

When Jeep's own franchised technicians fail to resolve a recurring problem on a vehicle in warranty, they not only disappoint the customer that owns the faulty vehicle, they disappoint all Jeep enthusiasts. Those that aspire to own the same model someday, will always remember the faults that plagued the technicians, and dread that it might happen to them too. The damage done is far bigger than just one customer, some of us are unlikely to buy new again and will hang on to the reliable Jeeps we currently own. This is a very, very serious problem that needs attention at the highest level.

 

Some time ago, Jeep appointed pointless brand ambassadors from irrelevant sports that had nothing to do with those that use their Jeeps off road. They failed to recognise that people like Manny are the real brand ambassadors. I am very disappointed that Jeep UK have not stepped in to guarantee 100% resolution of this problem. You should have had a replacement vehicle after three failed fix attempts. If the product has become so vulnerable due to the tech shoved into it, then Jeep and Stellantis have some improvements to make before the brand becomes as irrelevant as Lancia in their portfolio.

 

I remember those brand ambassadors, a showjumper, a cyclist and a rugby player wasn't it? What did they do, say thanks very much for the free Jeep? What a waste of money! As you said the best Ambassador is somebody out on the road driving a Wranglet Rubicon.

[MGomes]

1 hour ago, UKTJ said:

I was tempted to post this a few days back, but held back as I felt it might a bit like I would be ‘talking up my own book’ as they would say in the banking world.  Given the direction of the thread now I have decided I will post.

 

I have found your experience pretty shocking.  To be honest it makes me think the situation I am in with an old(er) Jeep that is very much just a fun car and an extremely reliable, practical daily driver is the best place to be.  I know personal circumstance and preference result in different decisions by different people, but I do wonder if it is an option you might consider.  I am sure with the proceed from Hank* you could buy yourself a sensible daily driver that would be comfortable, practical for dogs, etc. and much more economical than Hank to run and still leave change to buy an older Jeep just for off roading fun.

 

I get than Hank is a much cooler daily driver than a mass market mid sized estate car.  But then most of the time you have owned Hank he has not actually been your daily driver.  Any issue with the older, fun only Jeep would not inconvenience you on a daily basis and may well be a lot cheaper to fix.
 

Just a thought I wanted to throw into the pot.

 

* And I do not mean from you selling, but rather from a return to Jeep for a mileage adjusted refund.

You have some really valid points... my family thinks am actually mad for owning a Jeep as the vehicle has the reputation for not being very reliable (mine is not helping the brand lol). I considered this carefully when I bought the JL... I used to have 3 cars on the driveway when I had the VW camper and it was not cost effective in the when when you account for all costs (road tax / MOT / Servicing etc.) - Note that I AM NOT  a mechanic, so I will never do work in the cars myself (I was very proud when I installed the CB, and lets face it that's not hard)

 

The idea was, if I buy a fairly new car, from a main dealership still on warranty I will not have the issues I would have had, for instance with a LR 110 (plus the JL is much better to drive) - I understand my rights about giving Hank back (I would rather avoid this) - I have done 7K miles with him since I got it, so I would have a loss (this is for debate as if it gets there I will investigate my rights on the fact that I have been without the car for "x amount of time" (the fist repair, due to incompetence form the dealer I did not have a replacement car) - the fact that it is clear TODAY that potentially the first repair would have been simple and maybe not lead to other potential issues (this is still something to be confirmed)

 

Yes, I can return the car, stop paying the silly amount I do to FCA each month and get a high spec 3008 for instance like the one I have now from Enterprise (suits my needs for a lo let money)- BUT - where does this leave Jeep, the brand, their reputation - even with this group of enthusiast (you are not the first or second that states "I would not buy a new Jeep")? If no one buys them, they will disappear...

[Raakhee]

A Jeep Wrangler has always been my dream vehicle. I'm finally going to have that realised. Jeep as a brand is great. Jeep UK certainly are aware of what we do with our Jeeps. I've had them contact me twice to use my content which recently included a photo of Hank.  

Where we are being let down is the after care service. There are no trained Jeep technicians (or very few) to diagnose and resolve issues. Certainly a point to put forward to Jeep HQ considering the eye watering prices of these rigs. 

If they could train up a few strategically around the country we can rest assured help is available when we need it. 

 

Jeep UK Instagram screenshot featuring Hank

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Raakhee
Missed off pic

[digger]

I cannot be convinced that jeeps as I know them are unreliable , having had 9 Landies and 5 Jeeps as daily cars. My experience of Landies was poor reliability and service awful! Jeep has been the best make for reliability I have had!

The problem is Jeep's reputation( and some other makes I could name) comes from the vast , well funded ,propaganda machine ( as Richard Branson would say''dirty tricks dept'') that the competition has. Added to that , applicable to most makes, there is a seemingly insatiable demand for more and more complex electronics , some of which are in their infancy! Much of these demands are driven by the press I think. This is one reason why i am reluctant to change my car for something newer and the thought of an electric car is terrifying.

If I were to challenge  the issue I would do the following. First ,as far as I'm aware you do not have a right to a refund. To have achieved this you should have demanded it at the beginning . So, I would insist on  and  make a physical appointment with your local trading standards office, because your legal issue is with the dealer you bought it from! A telephone call is no good, will only get you a lightweight answer. I would take accurate records of exactly what has happened, hook,line and sinker!

Do you have a free legal helpline with your house or motor insurance? If so I  would talk to them as well because you can save a lot of money before you have to consult your own solicitor.

[MGomes]

9 minutes ago, digger said:

I cannot be convinced that jeeps as I know them are unreliable , having had 9 Landies and 5 Jeeps as daily cars. My experience of Landies was poor reliability and service awful! Jeep has been the best make for reliability I have had!

The problem is Jeep's reputation( and some other makes I could name) comes from the vast , well funded ,propaganda machine ( as Richard Branson would say''dirty tricks dept'') that the competition has. Added to that , applicable to most makes, there is a seemingly insatiable demand for more and more complex electronics , some of which are in their infancy! Much of these demands are driven by the press I think. This is one reason why i am reluctant to change my car for something newer and the thought of an electric car is terrifying.

If I were to challenge  the issue I would do the following. First ,as far as I'm aware you do not have a right to a refund. To have achieved this you should have demanded it at the beginning . So, I would insist on  and  make a physical appointment with your local trading standards office, because your legal issue is with the dealer you bought it from! A telephone call is no good, will only get you a lightweight answer. I would take accurate records of exactly what has happened, hook,line and sinker!

Do you have a free legal helpline with your house or motor insurance? If so I  would talk to them as well because you can save a lot of money before you have to consult your own solicitor.

Thank you, I’ll will check my options once this issue is resolved or not… in theory I should be able to get something as the issue was reporting within 3 months of purchase (October last year)… just not resolved the the dealership then! 
Jeep CS have called me with an update and the dealer is checking the aux battery (if low could have caused the issue seen on Friday) - they are working and checking, one can hope! 

[MGomes]

So an update from Jeep CS on Friday evening! It seems that they did find an issue with one of the batteries in Hank that as per the dealer would have caused the errors when I went to pick up the car last week… they are “testing” it currently and we’re hoping for me to collect it tomorrow all going well… I am traveling to NJ for a flying visit to HQ so won’t be able to pick Hank up until Friday AM, giving them ample testing time to verify the issue was the battery…

Somehow I am hopeful as the approach from this dealership has been more technical (i.e. they actually did troubleshooting with the car) - time will tell if we have a decent Jeep workshop in the Southwest?

[UKTJ]

9 hours ago, MGomes said:

So an update from Jeep CS on Friday evening! It seems that they did find an issue with one of the batteries in Hank that as per the dealer would have caused the errors when I went to pick up the car last week… they are “testing” it currently and we’re hoping for me to collect it tomorrow all going well… I am traveling to NJ for a flying visit to HQ so won’t be able to pick Hank up until Friday AM, giving them ample testing time to verify the issue was the battery…

Somehow I am hopeful as the approach from this dealership has been more technical (i.e. they actually did troubleshooting with the car) - time will tell if we have a decent Jeep workshop in the Southwest?

Great news.

That is a flying visit!  I used to do silly things like that when I was young

[MGomes]

5 hours ago, UKTJ said:

Great news.

That is a flying visit!  I used to do silly things like that when I was young

First time back since March 2020 - it’s amazing the amount of Jeeps (Wranglers) you see on the road!

[Caroline12]

On 08/05/2022 at 22:57, V said:

Those that aspire to own the same model someday, will always remember the faults that plagued the technicians, and dread that it might happen to them too. The damage done is far bigger than just one customer, some of us are unlikely to buy new again and will hang on to the reliable Jeeps we currently own. 

Very True V, I test drove a Wrangler from Snows Southampton and was told the Wrangler in the showroom could not be driven due to the second battery under the main battery had failed, from new. This battery is a special battery and only Jeep make. It was on a 6 week wait for the battery from the USA. This raised alarm bells immediately, 6 week wait for a brand new Jeep with a failed special extra battery. That scared me. I drove it, fun to drive, seating for me was uncomfortable, shame. But the biggest thing was Dad got in, 77 at the time and head butted the roll cage He has short legs and stepped on the side step to get in, that was in the showroom. Dad couldn’t get in it very well, so that finished it. 
I wouldn’t buy one now, seat position are still uncomfortable for me, plus all the electrical tech issues from Manny’s Jeep and the 2nd battery issue. Shame as I love the Wrangler. 
 

I brought my older full dirty diesel Renegade Trailhawk, 1 owner, slightly abused/dented Renegade. But fully working. I didn’t want the full Renegade 4XE for off-road and water. I have already broken one Diesel engine with water battery pack and elec motor with water no thanks. I’ll stick with diesel