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Insurance, new thread!


otruk

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Following the issue re insurance for private off road sites.  I was insured with A Plan and on renewal did raise the issue of what would happen on a private site, they indicated that I would not be insured.  I accept that if I damage my Jeep its my issue but what happens if I damage someone else?  I had words with Adrian Flux whos cover covered all green laning etc.  They also said my new policy would cover me for private sites, its not an issue that I have ever thought about until it was brought up in a recent thread.

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Green lanes or rather byways are legally classed as roads, the same as the M1 or North Circular Road so no matter what car insurance policy you have, you should be legally covered to drive a byway. 
Just my interperation.

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Absolutely correct!

However the issue is Pay & Play sites and Club events on the same. On entry they usually have a notice stating 'entry and participation at your own risk' or words to that effect. It would be prohibitively expensive to get insurance for such activities even if it were available.

Organiser's/site owners have public liability insurance in place, which in practice is virtually useless! 

So, at your own risk. If you damage your own truck, tough, if you damage someone else's, that's where it gets difficult! If you don't want to damage or give damage, don't attend, or keep your distance and obey site & club rules. Then you'll only damage your own, as some have found out!

That's my personal opinion and I will be shot down in flames no doubt. 

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This whole subject is relatively simple to explain and I will liken events to “Motorsport” events as this is as close to our events as you can relate too despite there being no competitive element in our “Pay and Play” evens. I’ve run a race teams many years in various categories as some of you may know so know this field well. 
Here is how things are broken down in regards to PL insurance and what is in place for JOV events (Pay and Play sites). 
The site’s we use and the JOC both run public liability insurance, this covers from a practical point of view the owners and organisers from liability if there was an incident due to their negligence or a failure on the part of the advice or equipment used by either causing harm/ damage. 
This is the same for instance as you would have at a track like Oulton Park where a race series was being help by a particular organisation, both the track owners and the organisers of the series would have PL insurance in the same way. 
This DOES NOT cover participants vehicles in any other way than as the above in regards to failure of advice or equipment. 
If you damage your vehicle or another attendees vehicle this is a matter between you and is typically not covered be any insurance, in motor sport this is known a a “racing incident “.
At the start of all events both JOC and at a race there is a briefing and all drivers/ passengers and people “Trackside” are covered by a signed waiver typically signed by driver that covers those then within his care such as passenger. This is done at every event organised by JOC as it is at any other motorsport event.  
If you have been to a participated in a JOC event you will have signed this and of course done your own due diligence and read fully and understood the document. At which point you will have been aware that there is no cover provided for vehicles at the event over and above the PL insurance cover and in signing this waiver you accept the risk involved and will not hold the land owners and JOC liable for any subsequent damage, loss or harm. 
From the outset of the JOC club, when running any event we made the decision that we would only allow Jeeps on our events that were full road legal, MOT’d and insured for road use. This has nothing to do with insurance at the events but is simply in place to prevent vehicles at events that are trailered in and drivers are set on destroying as you will see at most 4x4 pay and play events. The rationale behind this is that is the vehicles are road legal and insured it is more likely that the driver has a vested interest in it being drivable home and would be more careful and mindful of risks/rules and others whilst driving the sites. Some of you will have been at events where we have turned members away with Trailered in Jeeps and also intervened where reckless driving had been reported or seen and even one event where a member was asked to leave. 
If you believe there is too much risk involved at a “Pay and play” event then you must take your own view on attending. What I would say is that so far at JOC events we have had no incidents involving third party vehicle and in general all members attending our events have been very vocal in how much more secure they feel at a closed JOC event than an open free for all “Pay and Play” due to the measures we have in place and the mutual respect and friendliness of all involved. I personally took the decision some years back to not attend “Pay and Play” sites due to the amount of £100 scrap 4x4’s being raced around with no care for others, JOC event are the antidote to these ! 
 
Thanks Chris 

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Yep green lanes are legal roads and insurance will cover.  But I wondered what would happen on a pay and play site if I ran into a person or a new Rubicon (etc) hence now having a policy with that cover added.

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Re Motorsport - I have a small group of MSUK Rally Marshals and we attend several local rallies. At every event and on briefing notes it states 'Motor Sport can be dangerous'.

One of our more senior colleagues, a one time international competitor, added  'Lets keep it that way' !! 

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24 minutes ago, otruk said:

Yep green lanes are legal roads and insurance will cover.  But I wondered what would happen on a pay and play site if I ran into a person or a new Rubicon (etc) hence now having a policy with that cover added.

Basically this is between you and them but having both signed a waiver excepting the risk involved in using the site they’d be no recourse possible. Then it comes down to goodwill. 

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16 hours ago, Chrisby said:

...If you have been to a participated in a JOC event you will have signed this and of course done your own due diligence and read fully and understood the document. At which point you will have been aware that there is no cover provided for vehicles at the event over and above the PL insurance cover and in signing this waiver you accept the risk involved and will not hold the land owners and JOC liable for any subsequent damage, loss or harm...

This suggests only JOC and the land owner benefit from the waiver...

 

16 hours ago, Chrisby said:

...Basically this is between you and them but having both signed a waiver excepting the risk involved in using the site they’d be no recourse possible. Then it comes down to goodwill. 

...but this suggests other participants benefit from the waiver as well.

 

This is a pretty important point IMHO.  If it is the latter I suspect any insurer would use this as a basis for non-payment for damage to another member's Jeep.  Therefore if people pay to add off road insurance for third parties and only do JOC off road events they may be paying for something that is of no benefit to them.  It would be great if you could clarify whether the waiver covers other participants or just JOC and the land owner.

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16 hours ago, otruk said:

Yep green lanes are legal roads and insurance will cover.  But I wondered what would happen on a pay and play site if I ran into a person or a new Rubicon (etc) hence now having a policy with that cover added.

Presumably then JOC waivers are not required to be signed at events that take place on Green Lanes?  I have not been on one, so I do not know from personal experience.

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29 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

This suggests only JOC and the land owner benefit from the waiver...

 

...but this suggests other participants benefit from the waiver as well.

 

This is a pretty important point IMHO.  If it is the latter I suspect any insurer would use this as a basis for non-payment for damage to another member's Jeep.  Therefore if people pay to add off road insurance for third parties and only do JOC off road events they may be paying for something that is of no benefit to them.  It would be great if you could clarify whether the waiver covers other participants or just JOC and the land owner.

 

Sorry but none of us in the JOC team are qualified to answer your questions. I suggest that you speak with your insurance broker / provider.

 

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22 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

Presumably then JOC waivers are not required to be signed at events that take place on Green Lanes?  I have not been on one, so I do not know from personal experience.

Incorrect

 

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36 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

This suggests only JOC and the land owner benefit from the waiver...

 

...but this suggests other participants benefit from the waiver as well.

 

This is a pretty important point IMHO.  If it is the latter I suspect any insurer would use this as a basis for non-payment for damage to another member's Jeep.  Therefore if people pay to add off road insurance for third parties and only do JOC off road events they may be paying for something that is of no benefit to them.  It would be great if you could clarify whether the waiver covers other participants or just JOC and the land owner.

"you suspect" and all such other assumptions only reinforce what I have said repeatedly. Go ask your insurer and take out the level of cover you need to sleep at night. End of. These endless assumptions that you make have been going on for several threads and I ask that you pick up the phone and call your insurance company.   

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I agree with Volant. 

By the way, ref Chrisby's post 20 hours ago--   ''I thought all Landies  were £100 worth of scrap'' 😄

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