Tuff Terrains, Spring 2022

[Stu2985]

jeez i look a right lardy boy in those pics OMG !!!

[TimC]

29 minutes ago, Stu2985 said:

jeez i look a right lardy boy in those pics OMG !!!

 

And I look a right old git  .........I don't understand it!

[TimC]

18.. ''Oh dear James! Hope its soon sorted. Better luck next time,with a Jeep, of course!''

 

Phil, there is a possibility that the Disco might be traded in for an XJ when funds allow. There is a really nice 4.0L manual with 35s on ebay at the moment that seems to be tempting 

[digger]

Old git! Rubbish! What? Worse than me!

[Wildjeeper62]

We also would like to say a Big Thank You or even a Big "Merci Beaucoup" to Vince and Helen for this Superb event.

We really enjoyed every minute of this fantastic gathering of friends. We did not share the cold nights of the Camp site because we were not brave enough but what a treat these few days were amongst you guys !!

 

The next two people I am also very grateful to are Stewart Pickering for leading our Group through the stunning sceneries of the Welsh Green Lanes. OMG !! This man knows all the routes and was commenting at the same time on the CB about the History of the lanes and Points of Interests. Not only that but his partner and Co-pilot Gaenor took an unbelievable amount of pictures and videos of each of our Jeeps as well as opening all the Gates. Thanks to you both !!

[V]

I really enjoyed it, and I am glad you all did to. We were a good team together. I hope we can meet up again at another event soon.

[digger]

Hi Stu, tyre size talk.

This is difficult after last weekend. I came away thinking 35s!  However?

Vince kindly brought a 33"x 12.50 spare for me to try when he was over a few weeks ago!  My spec is 2 1/2" OME spring lift plus 2" body lift (latter  was on car when I bought it) Conclusion was that I might get 33s on if I stayed with  10.50 wide. However I would  have to fit extended arches for 12.50. Even with the arches 33 looked about it without more lift or cutting bodywork, neither of which do I want, because I do not wish to lose good road handling/comfort nor the originality of my YJ.  So, its a bit of a conundrum! It is clear to me that clearance for diffs and springs is what would help me. I do think that the fact that the ground was so hard last weekend made matters a lot worse than usual.

 I did very little exploration at TT this time. Last time ,a few years ago, I did quite a lot and I suspect there is still a lot more that we could do. Certainly I've had no probs at the majority of JOC venues and green lanes.

What do you feel now you've had time to consider?

 

 

[Stu2985]

Cold light of day :  I just have the 2.5 " lift SO i would need to body lift, New arches and I would need to regear diffs and buy the new tyres.  None of which I can afford to do just to gain 2 " under my diffs for 1 or 2 occcasions per year. There is only 1 green lane I can think of I cant drive currently (out of hundreds)and I just pick the areas to play in at off roadsites. So unless the big lottery wins happens I will running around on my 31s

[TimC]

1 hour ago, digger said:

Hi Stu, tyre size talk.

This is difficult after last weekend. I came away thinking 35s!  However?

Vince kindly brought a 33"x 12.50 spare for me to try when he was over a few weeks ago!  My spec is 2 1/2" OME spring lift plus 2" body lift (latter  was on car when I bought it) Conclusion was that I might get 33s on if I stayed with  10.50 wide. However I would  have to fit extended arches for 12.50. Even with the arches 33 looked about it without more lift or cutting bodywork, neither of which do I want, because I do not wish to lose good road handling/comfort nor the originality of my YJ.  So, its a bit of a conundrum! It is clear to me that clearance for diffs and springs is what would help me. I do think that the fact that the ground was so hard last weekend made matters a lot worse than usual.

 I did very little exploration at TT this time. Last time ,a few years ago, I did quite a lot and I suspect there is still a lot more that we could do. Certainly I've had no probs at the majority of JOC venues and green lanes.

What do you feel now you've had time to consider?

 

 

 

Hi Phil,

 

I would not put 35's on your YJ. Unless you are going to spend serious amounts of money on the brakes , suspension, drivetrain and chop the body about it's just not worth it. In addition it's all the extra issues: they weigh more so changing a wheel and getting the spare onto the tailgate becomes more difficult ( I watched Martin swapping his spare over, it was a two man job, especially at our age  ) and there's the extra weight on the tailgate. Your YJ has a great stock look to it and 35's would spoil it in my opinion. You also say that one of the things you like is the way it rides and handles which you are taking a chance on if you go up that much. I have 31x10.50s on my CJ and they are just right. If you want to go up then 33s would be as large as I would go and as large as you would need. My JK runs on 33s and it got round everything fine at TT ( when it wasn't overheating  that is). I reckon there isn't a green lane in the UK you couldn't do easily on 33s. By the way I have some nice pics of your Jeep on Strata which I must post/send you.

Cheers 

[V]

Bear in mind that I aired down to 19psi which turned my 35" tyres into the same rolling radius as a road pressure 33" or 32" tyre. I also got hung up a few times on my bulky rear diff. The Ford 8.8 doesn't leave much of a gap underneath.

 

What I noticed from watching Digger drive his YJ at Tuff Terrains was that the front shackles would dig into the incline of the track before the tyres had a chance to roll up it. With the leaf spring front suspension digging in, the Jeep would lose forward momentum quickly. It would also lose traction when the springs rode over the ground between the ruts lifting the front tyres off the ground. This doesn't happen on a TJ or XJ as the suspension is not visible forward of the tyre.

 

A SOA conversion would raise the springs higher relative to the tyre's rolling radius but they would likely still dig in on steep inclines. A shackle reversal may reduce this problem a little, but a coil spring front conversion would allow the front tyres to do their job. There used to be after-market front coil conversion kits for YJs. I guess sales have dwindled and they have disappeared over the years. Rock Krawler sells a $11K coil over long arm kit for YJ but that's a lot of money. If it were possible to find a TJ rolling chassis in the UK, doing a body swap would be cheaper. If it were my Jeep, I would try the shackle reversal first. It improves the ride quality on road. It is within Digger's skill set to create a custom long-arm coil conversion. Basic tech explanations in this 'suspension bible'.

 

I agree with Tim. Going up to 35" is a serious commitment. I built my XJ to go to 37" at some point but I decided recently that 35" was plenty big enough for me to lift without suffering a back injury. The difference in braking performance with single piston calipers between 33" and 35" is shocking. You can get away with stock brakes up to 33" but beyond that dual piston calipers are a necessity.

 

Your lattice alloys have 5.25" backspacing. With 1.75" spacers this is effectively to 3.5"bs on a 15x7 rim. It would need proper calculation for your steering clearance on your springs, but I think a stock 16" Jeep wheel (ZJ, 2000 TJ & XJ) using the same spacers that you have running a narrower tyre like a 235/85R16 which is almost a 32" and a common size available in many brands. 16" wheels will give you more options for brakes in the future. As you have 31" tyres at the moment going up to 32" is only something worth doing when you need new tyres or want to avoid fitting wider flares.

 

[digger]

Hi everyone, thank you all for your suggestions and options. It is all very interesting and most helpful in assisting me to clarify my thoughts. 

I agree with everyone!

However, my diagnosis , 2 yrs treatment and the approach of mid 70s have changed some of my views. I have spent much of my life working with mechanical things , mainly as a hobby. The last few months I was quite concerned about how slowly I work now (although that's improving at last). When I was talking to Vince, when we tried his spare 33", it clicked. I was getting fed up with working on the cars! Its the graft and hastle with parts. The prospect of taking on more effort was daunting!   I desperately wanted to get the YJ done so that I could attend the trek. I'm so glad I did!  I had an awful lot of fun and realised I did not have to have the most capable Jeep in the UK to do it. 20 yrs ago I would have been up for building anything, but now I want to get out and about doing different  things! Vince and Helen have cemented that point of view.  I'm not stopping fiddling altogether but I will avoid more major jobs. So, bearing that in mind ,my thoughts are below.

 

I would have done a SOA when I fitted the 8.25 and regeared, had I have known all the benefits then. However , it is too much work to go though it all again !

Interesting observations ,Vince re your airing down. For this sort of reason and the dry terrain I only went to 25lbs. I think I could have stayed at road 28 without an issue. I have often not aired down at all at many venues! Thankyou for your observations re my shackles digging in. I suspect they represent a relatively small amount of drag though. It is when the u bolts and plates plus the diff hits the dirt that I jack up and stop. From what you have said, I guess the springs work a bit like skis! The dry conditions exacerbated this! These areas also are where I get the most compacted soil build up back and front. What do you think of this idea? Suppose I made or found some U bolts that are square ,rather than round. I then fitted them upside down with some clamps around the axle tube, a bit like exhaust clamps. This would improve my drag and clearance by a good inch I reckon. Easy too! 

32/33/35, I may still consider this but right now I'm up for more events. Perhaps a winter job , ready for Trek, Chambon and JOC next year!  I appreciate your points re 35s/brakes etc Vince. You have settled it for me, the max I might consider is 32/33.

I will say that the regear seems excellent so far. The Yj is a different car! The only issue was that it is so different that ,driving her for the first time on the trek I didn't know which gear to use and was wrong a number of times. I was running on 3.07 and now 4.1. A big change!  The downhill control is much improved, especially when I get the right cog, LOL. I was concerned about effect on mpg but if anything it seems to have improved , time will tell. the fact that I can now use 5th gear on the road helps plus even third is acceptable around town for lots of the time!

[UKTJ]

I think that sounds very sensible @digger.  I do not know all the technical differences between the YJ and the TJ, but everything I have read is that the step up from 33" to 35" for a TJ is a lot of work and a lot of money.

[JimC]

38 minutes ago, UKTJ said:

I think that sounds very sensible @digger.  I do not know all the technical differences between the YJ and the TJ, but everything I have read is that the step up from 33" to 35" for a TJ is a lot of work and a lot of money.

You can also learn a lot more on how to tackle obstacles if you are running a lower spec. 
I run 31"/32" on my WJ which does not require a re-gear or the need to cut out the wheel arches. Yes the tyres do rub the arches at times but a 2" lift on my does what I want.
It is more fun and more of a challenge.

[digger]

Hi UKTJ,

You missed out on the trek. Vince and Helen did a fantastic job and I don't know how to thank them enough.

YJ/TJ differences. I don't know them all by any means but the basics are:-  Yj has rectangular lights like an XJ. Yj has leaf springs all round whereas TJ has coils. I think the TJ maybe slightly longer which is evident mainly in the doors. A lot of people say the ride is better on a TJ. However , I say that depends on how it is set up!

[JimC]

Change of subject, but did someone post on here that they might have a bolt for my front brake calliper?

 

[digger]

Tell me the exact length, measured from beneath the head, diameter and type of thread, then cross fingers and I will see what I can do!

[TimC]

31 minutes ago, JimC said:

Change of subject, but did someone post on here that they might have a bolt for my front brake calliper?

 

It was Frosty, on the Jeeptrek forum Jim.

[V]

They have them on rockauto.com for a few £. It would be worth buying two sets as I doubt it will affect the shipping cost by much. Don't forget the loctite.

[JimC]

19 minutes ago, V said:

They have them on rockauto.com for a few £. It would be worth buying two sets as I doubt it will affect the shipping cost by much. Don't forget the loctite.

Thanks Vince
Not yet called Lighthouse but if they do not stock them then I will order from rockauto

 

[UKTJ]

4 hours ago, digger said:

Hi UKTJ,

You missed out on the trek. Vince and Helen did a fantastic job and I don't know how to thank them enough.

YJ/TJ differences. I don't know them all by any means but the basics are:-  Yj has rectangular lights like an XJ. Yj has leaf springs all round whereas TJ has coils. I think the TJ maybe slightly longer which is evident mainly in the doors. A lot of people say the ride is better on a TJ. However , I say that depends on how it is set up!

Yes, pictures look great and everyone seems to have had a great time.  I would have loved to have done it, but felt I lacked sufficient experience off road.  I would not have wanted to be a ‘problem child’.  Next time maybe I will have had more experience.

 

Dows the YJ have Dana 30 front and 44 rear?  Though I think you have swapped yours out, so maybe not a relevant question.

[V]

YJ typically were high pinion D30 front with vacuum operated axle disconnect and low pinion D35 rear. Digger did a great job upgrading his D30 to remove the axle disconnect. For the rear he swapped in a Chrysler 8.25" from a 2.5L XJ Sport which had 4.11 gears as standard. The Chrysler 8.25" is almost as strong as a D44. He also fitted a Tom Woods SYE and rear propshaft.

[digger]

The service from Tom Woods was excellent. Shaun Woods couldn't have been more helpful (patient with an old ft like me). 

I had also tried some competitors but it soon became clear that unless you were bog standard they were out of their depth and soon lost interest.

I bought both axles from the XJ. Took the diff out of the D30 front and fitted it into mine. Both diffs were redone with new parts as necessary. I bought good quality  bearings locally at a fraction of the  import costs.  I did import new shims,seals etc from USA from RMS whose service was good.

I did have some issues of my own making. I had not done a diff like the D30 before(with shims inside the bearings). My genuine Chrysler manual said put all the bearing pre load shims in ,last(ok) but on the one side. It didn't sound right but I followed the rules.  Idiot, should have stuck to experience. The book is wrong. They pushed the backlash out and it cost me a second set of bearings! Once the backlash is correct with no end float the pre load  should be divided equally each side . I bought a cheap set of bearings (less than £20) for setting up the diff. These I ground out a bit with a flap wheel until  they slid on and off easily. I compared their accuracy with the new ones and was amazed. However, one could see quality issues with the cages and rollers. Fitting bearings etc no need at all for umteen ton press and all that.My good old fashioned deep freezer worked a treat and I suspect its less stress on the unit! Another old trick is to  cut off the  heads of a couple of old Crownwheel bolts and use them as guides when you pop on ( the diff carrier had been in the freezer over night and the cw on shelf above woodburner, quite warm but not v.  hot!) the CW. Cut a slot in the top of the studs you have made so that they are easy to remove with a screwdriver.

Hope this helps.

[digger]

22 hours ago, JimC said:

Change of subject, but did someone post on here that they might have a bolt for my front brake calliper?

 

Hi Jim, It was Martin on JeepTrek site who posted about having bolts! I've just read it.

[frosty]

i have bolts for a JK caliper.