Caroline’s, Rubber Duck Jeep Renegade build

[Caroline12]

3 hours ago, UKTJ said:

Presumably the US Trailhawk must have a different bumper.

I presume so ????? 

[Caroline12]

1 hour ago, V said:

The design of the Daystar bull-bar is definitely not "European". I would be very cautious about fitting it.

 

It is not illegal to fit a bull-bar or lamp-bar yourself to a pre-2007 vehicle, but I am fairly certain it is on anything newer. If your insurer is happy to cover it then I'm wrong.  It is illegal to sell a non EU type approved bull-bar in the UK since 25 May 2007. This also means that a bull-bar that you fit on a car registered after 25 May 2007 has to be removed before selling the car. The removed bull bar cannot be sold but presumably it can be given away as a gift.

 

The BIVA preparation manual requires all external edges that can come into contact with a person to have a 2.5mm radius. This also means that all external bracketry at the front must be at least 5mm thick or bordered with tubing to increase the radius.

 

I think it is worth having a chat with either AA or RAC legal support to get proper legal advice before fitting. If you do decide to fit it, make sure you discuss this with your insurer BEFORE fitting the bull-bar. Some insurers have been known to cancel policies immediately which then goes on your insurance record. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

My 1993 XJ had a full bull-bar as a dealer supplied option. As the second owner of the Jeep I intended to remove it as my insurance premiums were higher because of it. The first time I went off road in that Jeep the flat brackets at the bottom of the bull-bar folded on minor contact with the ground. The bull-bar got squeezed tightly onto the front bumper. I could still open the bonnet, but I had to cut the bull-bar off to fit a new headlamp bulb a few weeks later.

I could have brought the same bar here in the UK for more than double the price from the states. 

[Caroline12]

I’m still going to fit it with the ECE compliance lights, which people told me me, you can’t fit it’s not legal.

Also told the recovery point screwed into the plastic bumper and pulled out of it when towed. The mere fact it screw into the engine frame support into steel made no difference. 
While I appreciate the concern for fitting it, the tone seems rather kill joy-ish and officious. 
Quite honestly if I could choose which vehicle hit me a Renegade or Wrangler with the massive lip of a metal bumper- I’ll choose the renegade every time. 
you can buy it on Amazon.co.uk and https://www.greggson-off-road.co.uk/exterior-accessories/2015-jeep-renegade-2014-2018-frame-mounted-bull-bar-daystar.html

I mentioned these bars before in my build plan, no one said anything, you didn’t warn me before hand or anyone else. What can I say ? Not terribly happy after I’ve brought it. 

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, Caroline12 said:

I’m still going to fit it with the ECE compliance lights, which people told me me, you can’t fit it’s not legal.

Also told the recovery point screwed into the plastic bumper and pulled out of it when towed. The mere fact it screw into the engine frame support into steel made no difference. 
While I appreciate the concern for fitting it, the tone seems rather kill joy-ish and officious. 
Quite honestly if I could choose which vehicle hit me a Renegade or Wrangler with the massive lip of a metal bumper- I’ll choose the renegade every time. 
you can buy it on Amazon.co.uk and https://www.greggson-off-road.co.uk/exterior-accessories/2015-jeep-renegade-2014-2018-frame-mounted-bull-bar-daystar.html

I mentioned these bars before in my build plan, no one said anything, you didn’t warn me before hand or anyone else. What can I say ? Not terribly happy after I’ve brought it. 

I think as discussed in a different recent thread the rules are (deliberately?) unclear on this topic.  But to be fair, in the plan it was described as a "light bar", but in the instructions the manufacturer is describing it as a "bull bar".  My take is that a "light bar" is likely OK as it is not intended as protection of the vehicle, but a "bull bar" is not as it is intended for protection of the vehicle.  Given that the manufacturer describes it as a "bull bar" and not a "light bar" I think I would check with your insurer.  I don't think it is a matter of being a killjoy, if ypu fit it and do not declare it then have an accident you may find your insurer refuses to pay out as you have invalidated the policy.

 

As for Greggson, they are selling something they (and the manufacturer) describe as a bull bar, based on what I have read I think that is almost certainly illegal.

Edited November 7, 2021 by UKTJ

[spookie the aardvark]

Going back to look at the photos at the start of this thread to look at the Renegade with this type of bar fitted clearly shows this is a light bar. 

Looking at the fitted hight the only thing it would protect is the number plate. IMO it is far too low to be a bull bar.

It could be called a bull bar in the company blurb/instructions due to being mainly designed for the American market. Bull bar sounding more roughti - toughti than light bar. 

 

There have been some valid points made about badly worded legislation (which we all end up having to live with). It is always a good idea to run any mods past your insurance company as they will always try to find a way to avoid paying a claim. 

[V]

20 hours ago, Caroline12 said:

While I appreciate the concern for fitting it, the tone seems rather kill joy-ish and officious.

Sorry, I don't do tone. I'm slightly on the autism spectrum, it's just the way I am. If I spot something that could cause a problem, I will usually speak out. If I have caused offence, please accept my apology. I'm just a Generation-X Jeep guy that likes to go jeeping. I will take your criticism onboard and be mindful of it for future posts.

 

Some background...

One of my friends suffered severe financial hardship (life changing hardship) after his insurer downgraded his cover to road traffic act only. He had forgotten to inform his insurer of a modification before he was in an accident. The insurance assessor spotted the modification, I can't remember what it was, it was something trivial like a K&N flter. His fully comprehensive cover was knocked down to the minimum required by law and when he went to court he had to pay for all the damage to all of the vehicles involved and the court costs. I have been with Adrian Flux insurance ever since and always had fully declared modifications.

[Caroline12]

4 minutes ago, V said:

Sorry, I don't do tone. I'm slightly on the autism spectrum, it's just the way I am. If I spot something that could cause a problem, I will usually speak out. If I have caused offence, please accept my apology. I'm just a Generation-X Jeep guy that likes to go jeeping. I will take your criticism onboard and be mindful of it for future posts.

 

Some background...

One of my friends suffered severe financial hardship (life changing hardship) after his insurer downgraded his cover to road traffic act only. He had forgotten to inform his insurer of a modification before he was in an accident. The insurance assessor spotted the modification, I can't remember what it was, it was something trivial like a K&N flter. His fully comprehensive cover was knocked down to the minimum required by law and when he went to court he had to pay for all the damage to all of the vehicles involved and the court costs. I have been with Adrian Flux insurance ever since and always had fully declared modifications.

Thank you V, I understand your view point a lot better now and your friends story. Sad.

I wish someone had mentioned this when I first mentioned my plan, it would have been nice to know beforehand. Naive ? Yes because I don’t know. 
I don’t and still don’t view it as a bull bar, like they used to be, to me it is a bar that holds lights, it’s not even an A frame bar,  that’s how I see it. The law and insurance company will see it, probably in a different way. What we think is irrelevant.

I have read the links you posted, thank you, there is also information in there that useful to me.  I have also sent emails to the Uk shop and Daystar asking for clarification, I doubt I’ll get it.  I will speak to my insurance company as well. I have a better understanding of some of the issues. 
My Dad is also on the autism spectrum as well and I’m dyslexic, so I get that. 
I will discuss my plan with the insurance company and find out before I go any further.

thank you for the advice. 

[V]

22 hours ago, Caroline12 said:

I mentioned these bars before in my build plan, no one said anything, you didn’t warn me before hand or anyone else. What can I say ? Not terribly happy after I’ve brought it.

 

It can be tough being a vehicle modification pioneer. Making changes that few have done before can sometimes result in mistakes. But the enjoyment and satisfaction you get when it is right, is worth the odd mistake.

 

If you personally import a modified Jeep from the USA it would have to pass the Basic Individual Vehicle Assessment test. The IVA Inspection Manual is a reasonable reference for what you can and can't get away with when it comes to modifications on any vehicle requiring a UK registration. For the Daystar lamp-'bull'-bar this is section 16 and 60. Notice that the IVA mentions nothing about cars from before 2021. That's because it is only focused on cars being tested today in 2021. If you know the activation dates of certain pieces of legislation you can still get away with making those changes to older vehicles that would be prohibited after the activation date.

 

VOSA produced a detailed technical guide that had drawings and dimensions. I have an official ring bound copy that I bought in 2005. It wasn't cheap! It is the kit-car builder's bible but is just as relevant to those modifying production vehicles. I looked on eBay tonight and couldn't find one, only the motorcycle builder's version for £75 (used copy).

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by V

[Caroline12]

27 minutes ago, V said:

 

It can be tough being a vehicle modification pioneer. Making changes that few have done before can sometimes result in mistakes. But the enjoyment and satisfaction you get when it is right, is worth the odd mistake.

 

If you personally import a modified Jeep from the USA it would have to pass the Basic Individual Vehicle Assessment test. The IVA Inspection Manual is a reasonable reference for what you can and can't get away with when it comes to modifications on any vehicle requiring a UK registration. For the Daystar lamp-'bull'-bar this is section 16 and 60. Notice that the IVA mentions nothing about cars from before 2021. That's because it is only focused on cars being tested today in 2021. If you know the activation dates of certain pieces of legislation you can still get away with making those changes to older vehicles that would be prohibited after the activation date.

 

VOSA produced a detailed technical guide that had drawings and dimensions. I have an official ring bound copy that I bought in 2005. It wasn't cheap! It is the kit-car builder's bible but is just as relevant to those modifying production vehicles. I looked on eBay tonight and couldn't find one, only the motorcycle builder's version for £75 (used copy).

 

I guess things are all about perspective, I don’t see myself as a pioneer, I have the skills, tools and ability to do it; I don’t think much to doing it. That’s what I want, just do it. 
I have a back up plan for my lights, if it all goes pear shape. But let’s see what happens with the insurance company first and what they allow. 

[V]

I reckon there are less than 1% of UK Renegade owners that have modified or are modifying their Jeep.

 

pioneer

pī″ə-nîr′

noun

One who ventures into unknown or unclaimed territory to settle.

One who opens up new areas of thought, research, or development.

[UKTJ]

1 hour ago, V said:

 

It can be tough being a vehicle modification pioneer. Making changes that few have done before can sometimes result in mistakes. But the enjoyment and satisfaction you get when it is right, is worth the odd mistake.

 

If you personally import a modified Jeep from the USA it would have to pass the Basic Individual Vehicle Assessment test. The IVA Inspection Manual is a reasonable reference for what you can and can't get away with when it comes to modifications on any vehicle requiring a UK registration. For the Daystar lamp-'bull'-bar this is section 16 and 60. Notice that the IVA mentions nothing about cars from before 2021. That's because it is only focused on cars being tested today in 2021. If you know the activation dates of certain pieces of legislation you can still get away with making those changes to older vehicles that would be prohibited after the activation date.

 

VOSA produced a detailed technical guide that had drawings and dimensions. I have an official ring bound copy that I bought in 2005. It wasn't cheap! It is the kit-car builder's bible but is just as relevant to those modifying production vehicles. I looked on eBay tonight and couldn't find one, only the motorcycle builder's version for £75 (used copy).

 

From the link to the IVA Manual:

 

"Note 1: A frontal protection system means a separate structure or structures such as a bull bar or a supplementary bumper, which is intended to protect the external surface of the vehicle above and below the original equipment bumper from damage in the event of a collision with an object. Structures with a maximum mass of less than 0.5kg intended to protect the lights are excluded from this definition."

 

From the pictures at the start of this thread and the YouTube install video it looks like the light/bull bar does not extend below or above the OEM bumper.  Which would suggest by the IVA definition it is not a Frontal Protection Sytem, aka a Bull Bar.

[Caroline12]

8 hours ago, UKTJ said:

From the pictures at the start of this thread and the YouTube install video it looks like the light/bull bar does not extend below or above the OEM bumper.  Which would suggest by the IVA definition it is not a Frontal Protection Sytem, aka a Bull Bar.

Thank you 

[Caroline12]

Install video, I need to fabricate brackets to fit this.

 

[spookie the aardvark]

3 hours ago, Caroline12 said:

Install video, I need to fabricate brackets to fit this.

 

Hiya Caroline, I would assume that even if you don't have the recovery hooks fitted the holes and guessing captive nuts will still be there in the frame

[Caroline12]

Unfortunately not, nothing there !!! 
 

I’ll make something up, bar/welding or unistrut, got to get the bumper off first to measure up, locate, design and manufacture.
 

If strong enough might put 10 ton Eye bolts in for towing. Not sure, still playing with ideas. 

[spookie the aardvark]

7 minutes ago, Caroline12 said:

Unfortunately not, nothing there !!! 
 

I’ll make something up, bar/welding or unistrut, got to get the bumper off first to measure up, locate, design and manufacture.
 

If strong enough might put 10 ton Eye bolts in for towing. Not sure, still playing with ideas. 

Good old unistrut

The eye bolts sound like a great idea

[Caroline12]

I have just phoned my insurance company and said about the “Bull bar”  light bar and IVA manual and Front protection system definition. Details of bar given to them. I will hear back tomorrow, as it’s gone to the underwriters for consideration. 

[Mike WK2]

Keep us posted if you don’t mind, just cos I know I am going to have the same just arround the corner

[Mike WK2]

With 2 of the items I have planned as well. Will be interesting to see their take. 

[Caroline12]

Just spoken with my insurance company, underwriters have asked the following.

 

1. Rock rails, was it Professionally fitted - yes my me, Ms CJ Light IEng MIMechE (mechanical engineer)

 

2. the Light bar (there words, not mine), will this make an performance increase in the vehicle ? No. 
 

3. will the light bar be fitted by a professional ? Yes, by me
 

4. Light bar is just for lights only - yes

 

5. are you still using the vehicle for off-roading - yes

 

6. are there going to be other modifications? No, Roof rack, awning and lights.

 

I should find out tomorrow, looking promising, as they called it a light bar

[UKTJ]

3 hours ago, Caroline12 said:

Just spoken with my insurance company, underwriters have asked the following.

 

1. Rock rails, was it Professionally fitted - yes my me, Ms CJ Light IEng MIMechE (mechanical engineer)

 

2. the Light bar (there words, not mine), will this make an performance increase in the vehicle ? No. 
 

3. will the light bar be fitted by a professional ? Yes, by me
 

4. Light bar is just for lights only - yes

 

5. are you still using the vehicle for off-roading - yes

 

6. are there going to be other modifications? No, Roof rack, awning and lights.

 

I should find out tomorrow, looking promising, as they called it a light bar

I do have a tendency to worry about things so forgive me, but there are other ways to interpret some of those questions / answer them.

 

When they ask if items were “professionally fitted” they did not ask “was the person who fitted them suitably qualified”.  Now, professionally is usually used in one of two ways, either to mean it relates to somebody’s profession, or, that it was done as part of somebody’s job rather than no an amateur basis.  It is not clear from the post above which sense they are using the word in.  But, it is pretty clear you are not being paid to do this so you can’t answer yes if they are using the second meaning.  You are clearly very well qualified as a mechanical engineer, but do you work as a car mechanic?  If not it could be argued that you can’t answer yes to the question if the first meaning is applied.

I am not trying to rain on your parade, but as somebody who spent most of their career working with lawyers I know how they can spin an argument on the definition of a single word.  If your answer was “I fitted them myself, I am a highly qualified mechanical engineer” and that was documented and accepted then even I can see no issue.  But if you simply said “yes”, without explaining fully, in a worst case scenario it could give wiggle room to an insurer determined to avoid paying out.

 

I have to say, this whole discussion does make clear what a can of worms insurance can be with a modified vehicle.

Edited November 9, 2021 by UKTJ

[Caroline12]

I completely get what you mean, about the law and interpreting things. I have no issue with your comments.
in my career in the merchant navy with did international law for work, regulations, pollution etc, my degree (still doing) there is a lot of legal work to go through and legal points of view to consider. 

I did say “no” at first to professionally fitted eg: a garage, I explained this. Then I said “Yes, to professionally fitted and explained how I am qualified and gave my MIMechE status and membership number for reference for them. Giving them as little wiggle room as possible. Because I also know they will argue and spin things if they can. I wanted to them to accept It was professionally fitted as a mech engineer, as opposed to a (sorry if I upset anyone here not intented) a vehicle technician, who was paid to fit it, but not as qualified. 
do they require someone to be paid to fit it ? I don’t know ? Dad said if his garage was clear, I could have said fitted in a garage, professionally fitted  

I think my first step is to think, what other meaning or view point are they asking the questions. Eg: legal wiggle room and a like.

 

thank you for your comments, they are appreciated.
I did fully explain the situation and she sounded ok with that and wrote it all down. 

[Caroline12]

11 minutes ago, PDB said:

I should mention too that driving on unsurfaced highways ('Green Lanes') - Byways Open to All Traffic (BOATs) and Un-classified County Roads (UCRs) - is not off-road driving and is subject to the road traffic act etc and highway act duties for local authorities to maintain them in reasonable condition. Therefore, it is normally covered under standard insurance, but must be checked. Off road driving is illegal in UK and I think most of EU unless it is with landowner's permission e.g. pay and play sites. That also needs checking with insurance, ensuring no conflation between driving green lanes and off road driving.

 

To confuse matters, all public rights of way are termed highways. Tarmacadam surfacing is a relatively new (pollution intensive) activity as far as highways and the law is concerned. But that is another rabbit hole for another thread.

Thanks, another confusing aspect of off roading, green landing etc. It’s a colourful legal position to keep us on our toes I am covered for off-roading under the terms of my insurance, green lanes, roads car parks etc another thread I feel

[Caroline12]

My Dad would be hopeless as a lawyer, but he is very good at being awkward and difficult if he chooses to be, he has Aspergers and is a retired an Chartered Electrical Engineer, it’s always good to have a technical sounding board

3 minutes ago, PDB said:

" I could have said fitted in a garage, professionally fitted."

 

Your dad should have been a lawyer! 

[spookie the aardvark]

10 hours ago, PDB said:

I should mention too that driving on unsurfaced highways ('Green Lanes') - Byways Open to All Traffic (BOATs) and Un-classified County Roads (UCRs) - is not off-road driving and is subject to the road traffic act etc and highway act duties for local authorities to maintain them in reasonable condition. Therefore, it is normally covered under standard insurance, but must be checked. Off road driving is illegal in UK and I think most of EU unless it is with landowner's permission e.g. pay and play sites. That also needs checking with insurance, ensuring no conflation between driving green lanes and off road driving.

 

To confuse matters, all public rights of way are termed highways. Tarmacadam surfacing is a relatively new (pollution intensive) activity as far as highways and the law is concerned. But that is another rabbit hole for another thread.

Very good points PDB but I would suspect that insurance companies will use the excuse that "if it is not Tarmac and not black then it is not a road". We all know that we have to abide by the Road Traffic Act when we are out green laneing, but I am assuming that insurance companies will try to take a different view.

 

I also assume that they would try the same thing with pay and play sites trying the excuse that it is private land and there for insurance wont cover you.

In this day and age they will find any excuse not to pay out, which is kind of funny as they are only too quick to part you from your hard earned dosh

 

Come the revolution ...........................................