Hurray! Petrol Cherokee XJs can use E10! …and I guess at least anything else with the same engine.

[Fourpot]

Edited September 1, 2021 by Fourpot

[V]

My personal opinion is that the government's information is wrong based on nobody at Jeep remembered that older models had steel tanks. If your Jeep has a 2.5L i4 or 4.0L i6 engine and a PLASTIC fuel tank you are probably OK. If it has a steel fuel tank then it is probably not compatible. If your fuel pump starts whining or disintegrates by December, you will know for sure.

[TimC]

I would go with V on this.

 

Also a bit odd that the XJ is supposed to be OK but the YJ isn’t. Same engines and overlapping model years as far as I know . I’ll be keeping with E5 for the YJ, for the small amount of miles it’s likely to do I can live with the price difference.

[spookie the aardvark]

I have always used the Super unleaded in my V8 and will continue doing so as it seems to work just fine (kiss of death ) ............................ could be why I am poor

[AlexK]

The information for the government's E10 checker comes from ACEA, the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association. I'm not a fan. They don't say what methodology was used to compile the list (it's here if you're bored) and it hasn't been updated since 2018. They also reckon every BMW ever made is E10 safe, which seems... unlikely.

[V]

Esso is still selling 100% petrol in the UK...

 

What’s in our Synergy Supreme+ 99 premium petrol

Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation.

 

I guess the 99(%) means petrol and 1% additives.

Edited September 2, 2021 by V

[V]

Some useful info on E10 from Hagerty here

 

It was interesting that the RAC recommends that all cars made before 2002 should not use E10. Perhaps this is because Viton rubber was not common in the auto industry until 2002?

 

DIYers that have stock of 'O' rings will need to know that they are made of Viton or avoid using them on a fuel system application.

 

[AlexK]

 

1 hour ago, V said:

I guess the 99(%) means petrol and 1% additives.

 

99 RON, innit. Interestingly, Tesco don't quote what's in their popular Momentum 99.

[V]

Doh!

[BLUE STAR]

Had an EMail from Shell yesterday celebrating the fact that they now have E10 in all their stations & will save 750,000 tons of CO2 a year  'whoop de do'  which will make didley squat difference to anything.

Even though the only petrol vehicle we have is a 2015 Mazda, I'd rather not run the higher ethanol mix just in case.

Of coarse they state they still supply E5 in their V-Power brand, but at around 14p a litre higher.

Brexit, Bat Flu & Witch Doctor Climate Change,  all  scaremonger B.S. propaganda that we've been fed.

 I'm fed up with the lot of it.

They cant scare me I used to have a teenage daughter.

 

[Fourpot]

On 01/09/2021 at 13:28, V said:

My personal opinion is that the government's information is wrong based on nobody at Jeep remembered that older models had steel tanks. If your Jeep has a 2.5L i4 or 4.0L i6 engine and a PLASTIC fuel tank you are probably OK. If it has a steel fuel tank then it is probably not compatible. If your fuel pump starts whining or disintegrates by December, you will know for sure.

Mine's plastic. I'll be watching all the fuel system parts closely and maybe do regular compression tests (the ethanol can wear unsuitable valves? leaded to unleaded thing all over again?). The miles I do means a lot of dosh using 'super' petrol. I think. Maybe I'll calculate that... well, about £250 a year if I have to use super stuff at 14p a litre more. While my Jeep has been having it's new engine, I've got used to 50mpg out of my 2008 Skoda Octavia diesel!

[V]

LPG is still an option although a lot of petrol stations have stopped selling it. My '93 XJ has been running on LPG for more than 20 years. I would like to convert the '01 but I would rather do the conversion myself than let a 'professional' installer work on my Jeep.

 

With a 14p a litre additional spend that's roughly £400 extra a year for a 4.0L driving 12,000 miles annually.

 

With LPG around 66p per litre and E5 premium at £1.54, LPG could save as much as £2,400 in fuel every 12,000 miles.

[AlexK]

I’d be interested to see how Shell calculated their numbers. Using E10 generally leads to a reduction in fuel economy so to travel a given distance you end up using more fuel, which negates some of the (in my opinion purely theoretical) benefits. Some studies suggest all the E10 rollout will achieve is to push up food prices.

 

I’m alternating between regular unleaded (now E10 at most stations around here) and super, and since I tend to refuel with half a tank left, my probably groundless logic is that I’m making own E5 blend in my fuel tank.

[V]

I wonder how much ambient humidity and overnight condensation is going to affect mpg now.

[Fourpot]

On 02/09/2021 at 22:57, V said:

I wonder how much ambient humidity and overnight condensation is going to affect mpg now.

How does it normally affect it?

[BLUE STAR]

On 02/09/2021 at 22:57, V said:

I wonder how much ambient humidity and overnight condensation is going to affect mpg now.

Watched some YouTube videos on how classic car owners extract all the ethanol from petrol to enable them to keep them on the road.

Evolves pouring dyed water into a container of petrol, all the ethanol being attracted to it, allowing pure clear petrol to be syphoned off.

[V]

I don't know how much of an affect it will have. But from my own experience leaving a small amount of E5 in a lawnmower tank for more than a few weeks has caused starting problems on my lawn tractor that has a long flat tank.

 

Ethanol is hygroscopic so it will absorb water from the atmosphere like brake fluid does. The surface area of a full master cylinder reservoir is tiny in comparison to the liquid surface area beneath the air space in a fuel tank, be that in a Jeep or underground at a petrol station.

 

If the petrol injectors for a Jeep built before 2002 are metering a specific quantity of fuel into the engine, then I am fairly certain that the assumption made when the fuel map was programmed would be that the fuel was 100% petrol. If the amount of water vapour that ethanol can absorb into a litre of fuel varies, how much water is being injected into the engine with the petrol and ethanol?

 

A litre of petrol pumped into the tank from a retailer, may not actually be a litre of fuel. If the ethanol has absorbed water while in an underground storage tank at the retailer the fuel delivered will include an undetermined volume of water. I am guessing at the following figures but 50L of fuel put in a tank in an afternoon could be 51L by the next morning. In reality, I reckon that the volume of evaporated petrol vapour will just be replaced with water vapour.

 

I found this paper, but haven't read it yet as I have to get on with some work.

[V]

16 minutes ago, BLUE STAR said:

Watched some YouTube videos on how classic car owners extract all the ethanol from petrol to enable them to keep them on the road.

Evolves pouring dyed water into a container of petrol, all the ethanol being attracted to it, allowing pure clear petrol to be syphoned off.

I have seen some too. But I have not seen what they do with the extracted ethanol afterwards. Perhaps they are running a Moonshine distillery?

[V]

I have been looking for old reports on the introduction of E10 in the USA, but found these interesting articles regarding E15 in case the government tries to convince us E15 is OK in old Jeeps.

 

2012 AAA Report on E15 damage potential

 

2014 Article about Chrysler (and others) voiding warranties for E15 use

 

The 2012 EPA sticker required for display on all E15 pumps

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by V

[V]

I took my '93 4.0L XJ to a garage for her MoT today. It has been parked in my parent's driveway for 14 months, but whenever I have been there I have started the engine and kept it in running condition. I started the Jeep up this morning and had the engine idling for a while as I topped up the tyres using my 12v compressor. I switched the engine off and went indoors for a cup of tea before setting off on my journey to the garage. When I got back in my Jeep it wouldn't start on petrol. It tried very hard to but it just wouldn't sustain more than a few burst of rpm at a time. Fortunately my Jeep has LPG so I switched it over to start on LPG and it fired up straight away. I am fairly certain that the 3 year old fuel pump has failed or the same age fuel filter has clogged with rust. The garage is going to check it out. E5 isn't suitable for stay-still vehicles.

[Vernon]

On 02/09/2021 at 13:52, V said:

Esso is still selling 100% petrol in the UK...

 

What’s in our Synergy Supreme+ 99 premium petrol

Our Synergy Supreme+ 99 petrol has more cleaning power than our regular petrol – and includes molecules whose job it is to reduce the friction in your engine helping the moving parts work more efficiently.*

Although our pumps have E5 labels on them, our Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually ethanol free (except, due to technical supply reasons, in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Legislation requires us to place these E5 labels on pumps that dispense unleaded petrol with ‘up to 5% ethanol’, including those that contain no ethanol, which is why we display them on our Synergy Supreme+ 99 pumps.

There’s currently no requirement for renewable fuel, like ethanol, to be present in super unleaded petrol although this could change in the future, in which case we would comply with any new legislation.

 

I guess the 99(%) means petrol and 1% additives.

Very interesting-much appreciated.

 

As for E10 we don’t use it in SWMBO’s 60 reg Hyundai i30 estate.  (Horribly bland car but boringly reliable and really quite well put together.). For the last seven years we have used basic unleaded in it and the trip computer tells us our average mpg is 38.9.

Then E10 comes along and we think, best stay safe and so I put Superunleaded in it.  After a couple of months the computer is now saying 42.8mpg.  (The computer averages out the mpg over a long period/miles driven)

So, a quick calculation and the conclusion is that there is Bu99er all in it.

And as the car feels more responsive we will stick with the Super.

Very interested in the Esso information - many thanks

[Vernon]

19 hours ago, V said:

I took my '93 4.0L XJ to a garage for her MoT today. It has been parked in my parent's driveway for 14 months, but whenever I have been there I have started the engine and kept it in running condition. I started the Jeep up this morning and had the engine idling for a while as I topped up the tyres using my 12v compressor. I switched the engine off and went indoors for a cup of tea before setting off on my journey to the garage. When I got back in my Jeep it wouldn't start on petrol. It tried very hard to but it just wouldn't sustain more than a few burst of rpm at a time. Fortunately my Jeep has LPG so I switched it over to start on LPG and it fired up straight away. I am fairly certain that the 3 year old fuel pump has failed or the same age fuel filter has clogged with rust. The garage is going to check it out. E5 isn't suitable for stay-still vehicles.

Interesting - a neighbour had a visitor stay for a couple of weeks and her car was not used as my neighbours took their visitor out in their car.  When the visitor went to start her car it wouldn’t.

The home start chap who came out just cranked it to death and eventually it fired up.  He said they are seeing this more as the higher alcohol level in E10 absorbs more water from the condensation in the tank as the alcohol is hygroscopic and so after a period of non use you can get a water alcohol mix in the bottom of the tank.

If true - another good reason not to use E10

[V]

Sadly, fuel pumps and injectors are not designed to work with water. Cranking the engine over and over may eventually purge water from the fuel tank but it doesn't get rid of the corrosion caused to the fuel system components. That either becomes a problem straight away or at a later date.

[V]

I found this petition that you may want to consider supporting if you have a pre-1997 Jeep.

[Vernon]

4 hours ago, V said:

I found this petition that you may want to consider supporting if you have a pre-1997 Jeep.

Will do - many thanks.