The environmental cost of electric vehicles

[V]

I had a conversation with a friend last week who mentioned some important stuff that I didn't know about EVs. He said that the global supply of Nickel used in EV batteries would be depleted in about five years.

 

I have been interested in EVs since I was a child. In fact, the first vehicle I learned to drive was an EV, a milk float, when I was a schoolboy. I am not a follower of the anti-CO2 religion. I agree with the viewpoint that David Bellamy had when he was alive. I am very interested in reducing environmental pollution which I believe is a topic that has been hijacked by politicians. I started researching articles and scientific papers concerning nickel production and I found that EV batteries are far from green. I might post some links later, but I think if this is a topic you are interested in you should do your own research and correct me if I am wrong.

 

What I have found...

 

There are two types of nickel mined today, one type that is short in supply is easier to use in EV batteries, the other requires a lot more processing. Battery production creates a lot of sulphur dioxide emissions, carcinogenic dust clouds and contaminated water.

 

Of the known nickel deposits on planet earth, 40% exist in biodiverse and protected areas, 35% exist in areas of high water stress. The risk of species extinction due to nickel production has been known for 20 years or more and I suspect that in highly biodiverse locations such as Brazil, EV battery production is already a factor in this.

 

Industry and governments claim that the high energy consumption (and CO2 produced) for battery manufacturing is offset by EV use. However, experts also acknowledge that nickel exhaustion will require recycling process that have not yet been factored into a cradle to grave calculation. My own crude casual observer calculations reckon that the energy and environmental cost of recycling when added to manufacturing and usage, completely eliminates any gains of any sort that EVs claim to achieve.

 

I have already come to the conclusion that political environmentalism hides the truth from the public. I have already worked out for myself that the cradle to grave costs of large wind turbines and solar PV panels when factoring recycling at the end of their service life eliminates all claimed gains during their lifetime. The recycling of large wind turbine blades and PV panels are never mentioned by politicians and this is now my favourite shut-them-up question.

[Matt]

Agree with your viewpoints.  Power generation is far from green globally / UK, so factor that in then the net gain is likely to be negative.

 

Hydrogen is the best of the current technologies, but not production ready, nor is any infrastructure available.

[Volant165]

Hey look. There is a correct way to go about things. If the child in the photo was assembling Nike's, there would be an uproar, boycott, protests and more.  This is cobalt in the Congo for EV batteries.  I don't see a Prius boycott.

 

If we are moving to clean then lets take the time to do it right. 

[spookie the aardvark]

3 hours ago, V said:

I had a conversation with a friend last week who mentioned some important stuff that I didn't know about EVs. He said that the global supply of Nickel used in EV batteries would be depleted in about five years.

 

I have been interested in EVs since I was a child. In fact, the first vehicle I learned to drive was an EV, a milk float, when I was a schoolboy. I am not a follower of the anti-CO2 religion. I agree with the viewpoint that David Bellamy had when he was alive. I am very interested in reducing environmental pollution which I believe is a topic that has been hijacked by politicians. I started researching articles and scientific papers concerning nickel production and I found that EV batteries are far from green. I might post some links later, but I think if this is a topic you are interested in you should do your own research and correct me if I am wrong.

 

What I have found...

 

There are two types of nickel mined today, one type that is short in supply is easier to use in EV batteries, the other requires a lot more processing. Battery production creates a lot of sulphur dioxide emissions, carcinogenic dust clouds and contaminated water.

 

Of the known nickel deposits on planet earth, 40% exist in biodiverse and protected areas, 35% exist in areas of high water stress. The risk of species extinction due to nickel production has been known for 20 years or more and I suspect that in highly biodiverse locations such as Brazil, EV battery production is already a factor in this.

 

Industry and governments claim that the high energy consumption (and CO2 produced) for battery manufacturing is offset by EV use. However, experts also acknowledge that nickel exhaustion will require recycling process that have not yet been factored into a cradle to grave calculation. My own crude casual observer calculations reckon that the energy and environmental cost of recycling when added to manufacturing and usage, completely eliminates any gains of any sort that EVs claim to achieve.

 

I have already come to the conclusion that political environmentalism hides the truth from the public. I have already worked out for myself that the cradle to grave costs of large wind turbines and solar PV panels when factoring recycling at the end of their service life eliminates all claimed gains during their lifetime. The recycling of large wind turbine blades and PV panels are never mentioned by politicians and this is now my favourite shut-them-up question.

Now you know why I have a "Greta hates this" sticker under my 4.7 V8 badge on the back of Jeep

[TimC]

From an environmental point of view electric vehicles are not fixing the problem, they are just shifting it somewhere else.

[neal]

41 minutes ago, TimC said:

From an environmental point of view electric vehicles are not fixing the problem, they are just shifting it somewhere else.

They also don’t address the transport problem. We currently have congested roads (ignoring the impact of Covid) If we all move to electric vehicles, we have quiet congested roads. It does not remove any journeys for the equation, it just changes the mode of personal travel.

 

There is an interesting article by Michael Crichton form 2003 where he compares environmentalists to religious zealots, it makes for interesting reading. He had a very similar view point to David Bellamy mentioned above by @V

 

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~kw/crichton.html

[BLUE STAR]

7 hours ago, V said:

I have already come to the conclusion that political environmentalism hides the truth from the public. I have already worked out for myself that the cradle to grave costs of large wind turbines and solar PV panels when factoring recycling at the end of their service life eliminates all claimed gains during their lifetime. The recycling of large wind turbine blades and PV panels are never mentioned by politicians and this is now my favourite shut-them-up question.

You cant recycle wind turbine blades or even solar panels they have to go to land fill. I seen a figure a while back of  78 million tons of turbine blades that potentially will end up in land fill at end of life.

Solar panels are toxic so dont know what will happen to those.

Hydrogen is mostly produced from gas (google it) and some from water electrolysis with electricity, therefore mostly all fossil fuels anyway, so what is the point in adding a further wasteful  process in the equation, for a non problem.

 Continuing down this path I suspect  will make a lot of wealthy people even richer and the rest of us  a lot poorer.

I dont know about you lot but I think the world has gone 'NUTS'

[V]

I had not read that Crichton speech before. I reckon we have already arrived at the internet doomsday predicted in the final paragraph.

[V]

So after looking into the problem with recycling fibreglass wind turbine blades I found that there has been a global problem with recycling fibreglass boat hulls. This problem has been largely ignored for many decades and these also end up in landfills.

Edited April 12, 2021 by V

[BLUE STAR]

Wind farms are all about subsidy payments, between 70 -75%  for investors which is added to our leky bills.

Wealthy land owners doing very well out of it, and all those offshore planted on Crown Estates seabed no wonder Charlie boy is into this new religion.

Biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich  in History maybe ? 

 

 

[neal]

3 hours ago, BLUE STAR said:

Wind farms are all about subsidy payments, between 70 -75%  for investors which is added to our leky bills.

Wealthy land owners doing very well out of it, and all those offshore planted on Crown Estates seabed no wonder Charlie boy is into this new religion.

Biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich  in History maybe ? 

 

 

The same for domestic solar panels. The only reason companies would put free panels on your roof was because you signed over the feed in tariff rights to them. Also the tariff was guaranteed for 25 years on panels with a life span of maybe 10!

Domestic solar panels are usually installed to face south, generating the most electricity during the day, maximising the feed in tariff.
 

There was a study that showed to benefit the most they should be installed to face East and West, thereby generating electricity when the home owner is at home to use that electricity.

 

If you take away the feed in tariff, in the absence of local storage, all the generated electricity goes to the grid and the home owner still draws down electricity when it’s needed from the grid.

[V]

6 hours ago, PDB said:

Fibreglass can be recycled. Where there is a will there is a way.

Pyrolysis is probably the best method.

 

Sadly, according to the European Composites Industry Association (EuCIA) "GRP is recyclable and compliant with EU legislation, however at present facilities exist only in Germany to recycle, which is prohibitively expensive for UK scrap companies and not environmentally friendly due to the effect of transport. This leaves landfill as the only option."

[V]

Hydrogen power should have been the focus of EU legislation not just scrapping fossil fuels for 'renewables'. It just enabled profiteers to take short-cuts on providing inadequate heavily subsidised alternatives which robbed the funding and motivation for hydrogen.

 

I had a ride in a hydrogen fuel cell car back in 2016. I think it was a Toyota. It was fine, a little ugly due to the design compromises that had to be made for the bulky fuel cells but still a reasonable five seat saloon.

[V]

3 minutes ago, PDB said:

I suppose supply and demand will sort that out V in time. 

I think waste and recycling should be a nationalised industry. It takes far too long for private investment to put in place recycling facilities for tetrapaks let alone fibreglass recycling. It is far simpler for government to put in rules for recycling when government runs all or at least 50% of the recycling facilities.

[AlexK]

3 hours ago, V said:

I had a ride in a hydrogen fuel cell car back in 2016. I think it was a Toyota. It was fine, a little ugly due to the design compromises that had to be made for the bulky fuel cells but still a reasonable five seat saloon.

Yes, that was a Mirai. The new one is much better.

[AlexK]

3 hours ago, PDB said:

Toyota Mirai

 

That's the old one, the second-gen hasn't made it here yet.

 

Electric propulsion is fantastic, but batteries are a complete red herring in my personal opinion.  Truck OEMs are busying themselves with hydrogen and my hope is that they'll perfect the systems and infrastructure allowing it to trickle down to passenger cars later.

[Volant165]

7 hours ago, PDB said:

Ineos leading the way it seems with hydrogen and a hydrogen 4x4

 

For overlanding and general 4x4 and commercial load carrying use, hydrogen makes sense. Hopefully the Black Pearl can keep me going 'til then. And hopefully Jeep will provide an option.

Absolutely agree hydrogen should be a prevalent option. No refuelling network kills it quicker than a flat EV. Not sure if the initial costs of a Hydrogen refuelling setup is why it has never come to the forefront? I know it stopped Hyundai UK in their tracks back in 2014-2015

[V]

Toyota reckons they have 11 refuelling stations in the UK. It's a pity they can't state where they are on their website. Surely, knowing where to get fuel will influence more sales of hydrogen vehicles for buyers that live near fuel stations.

[frosty]

Hydrogen gets my vote all day long, it really does look like the way forwards.  

[otruk]

Maybe we all cycle!

[BLUE STAR]

16 hours ago, PDB said:

Governments are planning on investing heavily so, it will come on stream when they do. Big investors like Sir Radcliffe will help. UK and Aus are into it and plugging it as part of their green revolution - Wind in UK and solar in Aus not to mention natural gases from bio-digesters. Stewart's linked article led on to some interesting links there with ammonia conversion.

 

So its KFC to add to list of win win along with burgers.

Wind is intermittent, a waste of time and has to be backed up with gas & nuclear or coal

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Virtually zero yesterday when I checked.

If its so good why subsidize it ?

[otruk]

Oh your good!

 

[V]

I found this map for hydrogen refuelling stations . Even in the early days of LPG in the late 90's there were more refuelling places. At a minimum there should be a refuelling station on a 100 mile grid for vehicles with a 300 mile range. At this poor level of commitment to infrastructure only local courier delivery vans are likely to be running on hydrogen if they have refuelling at the warehouse.

[Gerald F]

There is a power point for EVs in Shetland which is run entirely from tidal power. Unlike wind, the tide is absolutely reliable and predictable, and only falls off for a brief period at the turn, twice a day. That said, we rarely go without a powerful supply of wind this far north!

 

A few years ago, there was also an experimental plant producing hydrogen from wind power on the most northerly island, with a car (just one) to match, but it was a bit too early to be commercially viable. Unfortunately, compressed hydrogen is much more difficult to store than LPG, in fuel stations or vehicles, but no doubt we'll get there.

Meanwhile, the environmental cost of scrapping fossil fuel vehicles, rather than running them until worn out, needs to be considered in the balance of green fuels used  in newly built ones. Perhaps I can keep my diesel WK2 for a bit longer. Interestingly, I easily got euro-6 compliance stickers for France and Germany for the 2015 GC, but can't get one for Birmingham, England. Is it more polluting in the UK, or is it just that Birmingham City Council wants more money?

Edited April 17, 2021 by Gerald F

[BLUE STAR]

Just for info on wind generation

We pay on average a subsidy of £350 a year on every household leky bill for the privilege.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/04/16/obscene-windfarm-subsidies-revealed-gwpf/

Would be nice for a supplier to offer instead of 100% green (joke),  supply  a 100% gas & coal supply so I could put the £350 saved toward my £580 (2008 climate Change CO2 based) road tax.